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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is my child a psychopath?

205 replies

Cindertoffebuns · 24/07/2023 15:56

I have 4 kids. All girls
They have adhd and we do our very best to manage this in a variety of different ways. We are very firm at home.

Today they went to a holiday club. DD 2 picked a ball up and threw it at DD 3 hurting her. Apparently this was before a game had started. She then didn’t bother to say sorry or check if she was ok ect. Just thought it would be a laugh to hurt her and run off. She is 10. Sister is 8.

Asking if she is likely a psychopath as she didn’t stop and check and she’s going into year 6 this year, that’s not normal is it.
For context she is the child that is the most mean spirited out of all of them. Always has to take things too far or ruin the day by hurting somebody.
She does have autism but can’t see this as an excuse tbh. Day 1 of the summer holidays and I could have relied on her to ruin them.
I know that sounds mean but I’m exasperated and her sisters are starting to really feel the impact of having to be around her so much.
The rest of us are so nice, why is she so mean spirited?

OP posts:
Endlesssummer2022 · 24/07/2023 22:54

All 4 of your kids have ASD, as in diagnosed by an actual specialist, not Dr Google?

Shoesandspottedsocks · 24/07/2023 23:01

OP said all four had adhd and dd2 had asd @Endlesssummer2022.

LuvSmallDogs · 24/07/2023 23:05

Siblings often fight and pick on each other. Sometimes my boys upset me with their behaviour to each other, then I remember what me and my siblings were like and think they're not so bad!

Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie · 24/07/2023 23:22

Go and watch an episode of Malcolm in the Middle. You're fine, she's fine. Relax.

I swear ADHD girls do go through a complete dickhead stage around 9-10, I would put money on it being hormone driven.

Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie · 24/07/2023 23:23

Endlesssummer2022 · 24/07/2023 22:54

All 4 of your kids have ASD, as in diagnosed by an actual specialist, not Dr Google?

Behave yourself 🙄

PhoenixIsFlying · 24/07/2023 23:51

My older brother used to give me Chinese burns , dead legs. Did all sort of mean things. He is now the most loving, kind and supportive brother I am lucky to have.
She is just a child and she has autism which is a lot for her to cope with.

GarlicGrace · 25/07/2023 02:54

I'm going to suggest a different approach. Apologies for crossover with PPs.

@Cindertoffebuns, you haven't said anything that particularly indicates psychopathy (or PDA, or antisocial tendencies, as commonly diagnosed in pre-psychopathic childhood) but you have other kids with SEN and this concern only with your second child. It's fair to assume you're not anxious over this incident alone, but have observed over considerable time that DD2 lacks empathy in ways that your other girls do not.

There are lots of possible explanations for this but, yes, 'psychopathy' is one of them. Like everything else it's a spectrum - not all kids who will be diagnosed in adulthood spend their youth torturing animals and setting fires. But there's one very fascinating aspect of psychopathy that could in some ways be seen as an overlap with autism, and that you might be able to leverage to DD2's advantage.

The children who torture animals & start fires, etc, are doing it to see what happens. Once you take the compassion and concern for consequences out of it, you can see how it would be interesting. They're experimenting to find out how the world works, in much the same way as children take toys apart to see how they work. In fact, neurotypical toddlers have the same approach to other people and pets - they'll poke and pull out of curiosity, not malice. As they grow, we encourage them to think about how it feels for the other child or animal and NT kids do develop this 'theory of mind' over time. BTW, theory of mind isn't fully developed until about 25 years!!

Now pre-psychopathic kids don't have the mental wiring to do this. But they are interested in how people work and, by adulthood, most are able to correctly predict how others will feel & respond to various stimuli. They also learn how to fake the same responses, even if they aren't feeling it.

Here's my partial autism overlap: we hear plenty about how autistic people learn to 'mask' in NT society, and how to interact in ways that others perceive as friendly and/or helpful. It's the same process, by and large. Certainly close enough for a child who is still growing and figuring out how to fit in with the world.

You've been trying to teach DD2 how to put herself in others' shoes, and it's not working. She quite likely feels got at: that she's seen as inadequate because she doesn't have this range of emotions considered normal and desirable. Whether she's autistic, psychopathic or both, it's only going to leave her confused and probably resentful.

So how about presenting it in a different way? Don't ask her to 'feel' or even care about the other's feelings. Put it as interesting phenomena. Make it an intriguing set of life skills. When you throw things at people's heads, it hurts them. They cry and get upset, then they won't play with you because you hurt them. When you pinch, kick or hit other people, it hurts them. They cry, get angry and they might hurt you back. When you hurt people, adults punish you. See how that happened at X time with Y? When you felt like kicking him, what else could you have done instead, and what would've happened next?

Anyway, you know your children; you know how to approach this with her. I'm basically saying that whether she's autistic, psychopathic or both, treating this problem with detachment instead of trying to engage her emotions might well work better.

A close family member of mine has psychopathy, and I've known a few others. In some ways I quite envy it! Good luck Flowers

GarlicGrace · 25/07/2023 03:03

... sorry, I should have added that the "have you noticed how X action gets Y reaction and Z outcome?" conversation also includes more positive interactions! It isn't just about how not to get in trouble, but also about how to make life enjoyable. I'm sure you understood that.

littlebopeepp234 · 25/07/2023 05:16

Cindertoffebuns · 24/07/2023 15:56

I have 4 kids. All girls
They have adhd and we do our very best to manage this in a variety of different ways. We are very firm at home.

Today they went to a holiday club. DD 2 picked a ball up and threw it at DD 3 hurting her. Apparently this was before a game had started. She then didn’t bother to say sorry or check if she was ok ect. Just thought it would be a laugh to hurt her and run off. She is 10. Sister is 8.

Asking if she is likely a psychopath as she didn’t stop and check and she’s going into year 6 this year, that’s not normal is it.
For context she is the child that is the most mean spirited out of all of them. Always has to take things too far or ruin the day by hurting somebody.
She does have autism but can’t see this as an excuse tbh. Day 1 of the summer holidays and I could have relied on her to ruin them.
I know that sounds mean but I’m exasperated and her sisters are starting to really feel the impact of having to be around her so much.
The rest of us are so nice, why is she so mean spirited?

This is one incident! A ball was thrown at another child, that’s it!

There is no such thing as a psychopathic child and a psychopath cannot be diagnosed with psychopathy, only adults can.

There are however, certain traits in children that can certainly lead to psychopathy ie. harming animals, harming parents, trying to kill siblings, threatening with knives, talking of killing or harming people, interest in fire and trying to set fires etc and a whole range of abnormal behavior. Throwing a ball doesn’t even cut it. Your child is not a psychopath just because they threw a ball at a sibling! Me and my older sibling used to do much worse to each other as kids and bicker and fight all the time and we both turned out fine!

littlebopeepp234 · 25/07/2023 05:18

littlebopeepp234 · 25/07/2023 05:16

This is one incident! A ball was thrown at another child, that’s it!

There is no such thing as a psychopathic child and a psychopath cannot be diagnosed with psychopathy, only adults can.

There are however, certain traits in children that can certainly lead to psychopathy ie. harming animals, harming parents, trying to kill siblings, threatening with knives, talking of killing or harming people, interest in fire and trying to set fires etc and a whole range of abnormal behavior. Throwing a ball doesn’t even cut it. Your child is not a psychopath just because they threw a ball at a sibling! Me and my older sibling used to do much worse to each other as kids and bicker and fight all the time and we both turned out fine!

FFS That should say “and a child cannot be diagnosed with psychopathy, only adults can”

Defiantjazz · 25/07/2023 07:41

Behave yourself 🙄

nah, given that OP is asking the internet for a psychopath diagnosis it was a fair question.

Cindertoffebuns · 25/07/2023 09:58

Mariposista · 24/07/2023 22:41

Psychopath was perhaps a poor choice of word, but from the way you write it is obvious you love your kid. Some kids are just not likeable at that age (read through the threads about 8-12 year old girls and awful behaviour, they sound worse than toddlers!). That doesn't mean she won't improve with time and become a lovely adolescent and young adult.

Thank you, to be clear I do like her. I love her to bits. It’s this behaviour I’m struggling with. She’s so much more than that obviously

OP posts:
Cindertoffebuns · 25/07/2023 10:00

Endlesssummer2022 · 24/07/2023 22:54

All 4 of your kids have ASD, as in diagnosed by an actual specialist, not Dr Google?

Yes they all have adhd
One has ADHD and SPD
One has ADHD and ASC
Significant adhd actually according to the diagnosing Dr

OP posts:
Cindertoffebuns · 25/07/2023 10:04

GarlicGrace · 25/07/2023 02:54

I'm going to suggest a different approach. Apologies for crossover with PPs.

@Cindertoffebuns, you haven't said anything that particularly indicates psychopathy (or PDA, or antisocial tendencies, as commonly diagnosed in pre-psychopathic childhood) but you have other kids with SEN and this concern only with your second child. It's fair to assume you're not anxious over this incident alone, but have observed over considerable time that DD2 lacks empathy in ways that your other girls do not.

There are lots of possible explanations for this but, yes, 'psychopathy' is one of them. Like everything else it's a spectrum - not all kids who will be diagnosed in adulthood spend their youth torturing animals and setting fires. But there's one very fascinating aspect of psychopathy that could in some ways be seen as an overlap with autism, and that you might be able to leverage to DD2's advantage.

The children who torture animals & start fires, etc, are doing it to see what happens. Once you take the compassion and concern for consequences out of it, you can see how it would be interesting. They're experimenting to find out how the world works, in much the same way as children take toys apart to see how they work. In fact, neurotypical toddlers have the same approach to other people and pets - they'll poke and pull out of curiosity, not malice. As they grow, we encourage them to think about how it feels for the other child or animal and NT kids do develop this 'theory of mind' over time. BTW, theory of mind isn't fully developed until about 25 years!!

Now pre-psychopathic kids don't have the mental wiring to do this. But they are interested in how people work and, by adulthood, most are able to correctly predict how others will feel & respond to various stimuli. They also learn how to fake the same responses, even if they aren't feeling it.

Here's my partial autism overlap: we hear plenty about how autistic people learn to 'mask' in NT society, and how to interact in ways that others perceive as friendly and/or helpful. It's the same process, by and large. Certainly close enough for a child who is still growing and figuring out how to fit in with the world.

You've been trying to teach DD2 how to put herself in others' shoes, and it's not working. She quite likely feels got at: that she's seen as inadequate because she doesn't have this range of emotions considered normal and desirable. Whether she's autistic, psychopathic or both, it's only going to leave her confused and probably resentful.

So how about presenting it in a different way? Don't ask her to 'feel' or even care about the other's feelings. Put it as interesting phenomena. Make it an intriguing set of life skills. When you throw things at people's heads, it hurts them. They cry and get upset, then they won't play with you because you hurt them. When you pinch, kick or hit other people, it hurts them. They cry, get angry and they might hurt you back. When you hurt people, adults punish you. See how that happened at X time with Y? When you felt like kicking him, what else could you have done instead, and what would've happened next?

Anyway, you know your children; you know how to approach this with her. I'm basically saying that whether she's autistic, psychopathic or both, treating this problem with detachment instead of trying to engage her emotions might well work better.

A close family member of mine has psychopathy, and I've known a few others. In some ways I quite envy it! Good luck Flowers

This is very interesting. I am going to try it out.

OP posts:
Mariposista · 25/07/2023 10:07

Cindertoffebuns · 25/07/2023 09:58

Thank you, to be clear I do like her. I love her to bits. It’s this behaviour I’m struggling with. She’s so much more than that obviously

Of course. You love your kid but don't love her bad behaviour. There is a huge difference.
Loads of 8-12 year olds are, frankly, unlikeable. MN is proof of that. But many (if not most) of those girls grow up to be nice young women. Just guide her, keep up the discipline, give her praise when it's earned. She'll improve.

Duckduckchick · 25/07/2023 12:22

Cindertoffebuns · 25/07/2023 10:04

This is very interesting. I am going to try it out.

I would also agree with this. My DSD (who may have ASD but no diagnosis yet) can often come across like she has no empathy/no regard for others including apologising when causing others injury. Not sure the root of this.

I noticed that she never used to say thank you for gifts, despite her parents trying to teach her about the emotional aspect of gift giving.

One day, a friend of ours said to her - if you say thank you to someone when they give you a gift they are more likely to give you a gift next time.

This worked.

pineapplecrushed · 25/07/2023 19:00

all 4 have adhd?

Lalalondon99 · 25/07/2023 19:01

Cindertoffebuns · 24/07/2023 16:08

Yes when she is struggling with feelings or dysregulated or overstimulated I do understand that. But sometimes it’s just completely unprovoked and seems angry and mean for no reason.

This is very typical behaviour for autistic girls particularly those with a PDA profile... it is not indicative of psychopathy, which can't be diagnosed at that age anyway. From experience it will take a very long time to teach her empathy, but it is possible. She is most likely overwhelmed most of the time.

Inwiththenew · 25/07/2023 19:32

You have to teach her to empathise it doesn’t always come naturally, like everything. Having a couldn’t care less attitude can be very useful in some aspects of life but it’s not good to be hurtful to others especially those closest to you. Maybe one of your more sensitive children can learn to have a thicker skin from this one. It’s all learning for all of us all through life but in kids so young best not to judge with such harsh labels. There’s always ‘other people’ can do that.

ScotsGirl48 · 25/07/2023 20:00

When my eldest daughter was young around 8/9 maybe slightly younger she jumped off her top bunk & broke her little sister’s wrist, then a few months later tried strangling her with the material from a dress that’s used to make a bow at the back of the dress, we went to a child psychologist who said my daughter wasn’t autistic didn’t have adhd or add she was just emotionally stunted at about age 5 now she herself heard this & has used it her whole life to get away with blue murder,she is now 30yrs old & still uses it along with some other supposed mental health issue

Toomuchtrouble4me · 25/07/2023 20:01

I don’t know if it helps but my friends DD was like this, from a toddler to teen she was just spiteful. Literally when they were 3/4yr olds our community play area would empty when she came in or parents would hover with their kids whilst they played. By the time she was 12 it was just spiteful with words and then she just seemed to grow out of it. She’s 23 now and honestly is just so lovely and embarrassed by how she used to be although of course she can’t remember when she was very young.
just keep trying and make sure that she knows the consequences to her spiteful actions - and carry it through. Perhaps some family therapy might help? It could be jealousy - is it possible that she’s living up to the expected ‘role’ in the family? These roles can be easily and unwittingly established.

IveHadItUpToHere · 25/07/2023 20:18

Do you have siblings? You seem to have unrealistic expectations around how they relate to each other. And rigid ideas about the roles and personalities of both your DDs. One brings unshine: the other can be relied upon to ruin holidays.

Two of my sisters would fight constantly - a ball throw; a mean comment, etc. As adults, one of them has admitted she constantly felt overlooked because the younger one was 'lovely, kind, cute' - sound familiar? Also, the lovely one wasn't as lovely to her siblings. She was good at crying and manipulating adults.

It might be worth giving them more individual attention and space from each other.

KnittingSister · 25/07/2023 20:39

I recommend 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk' Elaine Faber and Adele Maszlich. Not books about autism, but they are very good, giving examples on how to be really specific in your conversations. It worked for us.

blubirdi · 25/07/2023 20:49

Cindertoffebuns · 24/07/2023 16:07

Could totally understand the regulating emotions if this was a reaction to something or if her sister had bothered her, but in the incidences I’m talking about its just like she is stood there completely unprovoked.
Its these times I’m struggling to not just see it as totally mean spirited

It’s day 1 of the school holidays, she’s out of routine and will be for a number of weeks, this can be overwhelming for someone with ADHD and especially ASD, she’s dysregulated and due to ASD probably not aware of ds emotions. Try to plan your days and let her know the plans and maybe involve her in the planning.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 25/07/2023 20:53

Can I just point out that she is 10, and lots of 10 year olds without any sort of diagnosis (or needing one) behave like this sometimes?

They're still young. Still learning. Still pushing boundaries. In particular towards siblings!

(I'm saying this because everyone seems to be coming from a 'she has SEN' perspective, when it's normal for NT kids as well)