School detentions

[Drhollyfrazier]

They just don’t sit right with me at all. Teachers don’t want to be there so why do they insist on keeping children after school? I don’t understand where the mentality comes from that they can keep children there as a punishment past when they have to be there. Also lunch time detentions. Kids can have a break which would probably refresh them for the last few hours of the day but keeping them from their friends and a break from out of the classroom is surely only going to bring out an attitude and negative mood for the rest of the day.

When I was in high school 2007-13, I was often given detention for not completing homework, pretty much every week. That’s because I was so depressed during that time I wouldn’t get any sleep all night, having panic attacks, sometimes self harming. Every subjects teacher missed the warning signs of my MH and the response was detentions.

I just think it is absolutely not the right of schools to keep kids after school hours. aibu

@noblegiraffe no one has to go to get a child from isolation, they can just not go/leave.

Until you get to exclusion (and even after exclusion the school and then the LA still have to provide education), the whole system relies on people choosing to follow the rules and comply with expectations.

Which raises an interesting issue for mainstream schools because they have always relied so heavily on punishments and punitive systems, they don’t have many places to go once students don’t comply.

no one has to go to get a child from isolation, they can just not go/leave.

As explained, this results in temporary exclusion.

Until you get to exclusion (and even after exclusion the school and then the LA still have to provide education), the whole system relies on people choosing to follow the rules and comply with expectations

And luckily most parents support the school, and the rules. Most parents will tell a child to suck it up and get on with it if they get a detention, even if they don’t always agree with the reason for it.

But there seems to be an increasing number of parents who think the rules shouldn’t apply to their child. And often, these are the first parents in line to complain when there’s poor or disruptive behaviour at school. It’s like they can’t see the wood for the trees.

@noblegiraffe i know, I said that.

My point is that there is surely something fundamentally wrong with a system that has nowhere to go but to increasingly punish students-especially if the students are doing what their parents are telling them to do.

There are other types of education pedagogy which aren’t based so heavily on just punishment but rather on teaching personal responsibility from the beginning- ie, do the right thing because it’s the right thing for X reason, not just because someone will bollock you if you don’t. Sadly there is little to no opportunity for this in state schools because of the over population and under funding/staffing.

When it comes to college places who do you think the college will accept? The kid who didn't get detention, or the kid who did get detention but refused to attend? Believe it or not 6th form colleges look at these details.

Give over you tit, you sound ridiculous

I'd be really keen to learn what they do use as a consequence for poor behaviour instead. As there must be something! (If there isn't, expect your high achieving dc's education to be held back by the unchecked behaviour of other pupils)

The same goes for if your kids wants an apprenticeship. Your kids will still need to attend college and who in their right mind would give an apprenticeship to someone who is late, forgets equipment, didn't do their home (homework) then avoids the detention?

If you mess about/are late/forget equipment/don't do your work when you have a job you are fired. Best children learn this discipline when the only punishment is having to stay at school a little longer.

It totally depends on the school and their rules.

One school I worked in did an equipment check every morning, the first time you didn't have whatever it was (pen, pencil, ruler, diary) you got to borrow one from the school, the second time you got a detention as well.

Homework detentions are meant to be for you to complete the homework you didn't do.

Yawn..my child won’t be going to any detention should they be getting any.end of. Bored of this thread now

You will be expected to sign a home-school agreement. And at secondary your child will probably have to sign too.

I have bought this book and given it to my kids secondary school twice now

When the Adults Change, Everything Changes: Seismic shifts in school behaviour amzn.eu/d/32Fcxp8

FWIW neither of my two, in 8 years of combined secondary school have had a detention. But the constant threats, shouting, shaming affect them negatively too. The teachers demand respect from the students but it doesn't seem to work both ways. This is a big south London mixed comp with grammar schools nearby so it's very mixed demographics and ability. I still think the whole school culture could be changed if those at the top believed in a different way

I’ve read it, I’ve been in a school that tried to implement it, and it was a disaster for behaviour.

Never have I experienced kids so rude, disrespectful, defiant and dangerous as when they thought the outcome of that behaviour was a restorative conversation. The disruption endured by the other pupils to their learning when the highest priority was keeping disruptive kids in the classroom was immense.

That book has caused huge damage in schools over the last few years.

Restorative approach works some times but we’ve moved on from that. Paul Dix is a great speaker but living with that pedagogy only for behaviour management was a disaster.

In all my years as a teacher I’ve heard only a couple of screaming teachers and both were in an urgent safety situation. I use a sharp tone at times and have accused or shouting. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Boundaries are important and in the vast majority of schools your children are going to have to work within them.

I also think that we, as parents, need to ask what ‘earned’ the sanction. Far too many just dismiss any explanation from the school and as a consequence their children feel they can act with impunity.

But there seems to be an increasing number of parents who think the rules shouldn’t apply to their child. And often, these are the first parents in line to complain when there’s poor or disruptive behaviour at school. It’s like they can’t see the wood for the trees.

Parents have been to school themselves, and probably picked up on more bad than good in there. What makes them aggrieved, is that punishments are harshest on the good, decently behaved kids for the most minor infractions, i.e. stupid uniforms. But what comes to the really bad, borderline criminal behavior of some kids - then there is "nothing can be done".

This doesn’t mean it can’t work, but it isn’t something that you can just plop down into a school system with teachers and kids who don’t understand it and kids that haven’t experienced this type of thing before.

If you go to schools where this has always been the culture and the children have been used to it, often from primary school too, it’s a very different picture.

Actually @Plymsoul that is a very important point. Our primary and secondary schools pretty much feed into each other so they have had the restorative approach since age 4/5. It isn't about "just a conversation" consequences are for breaching a "golden rule" that they wrote and agreed to.

I think there is a bigger piece of the jigsaw not embedded -respect and communication. Often I read threads on here that have parents so defensive against schools. Perhaps it is due to their personal negative experience? if children are raised with that attitude then it would be very challenging to secure respect and trust by the teen for the school.

This doesn’t mean it can’t work

Of course, the ‘if it didn’t work it’s because you didn’t do it properly’ line.

In the book, Paul Dix allows a pupil to say ‘fuck off’ to him in response to a greeting every single morning until it becomes more friendly.

That’s just wholly inappropriate for schools.

There are certain aspects of the book which are good, but I know so many teachers who have basically been destroyed by this approach that I think it’s reasonable to say it had its chance and needs to go.

Perhaps it is due to their personal negative experience?

Actually yes. i would try and protect my child from being treated as i was.

I've only ever seen this semi work in a private all through school and even then it was quite scary how bullying incidents were handled, esp as they went up the school. These pupils, for the most part, came from homes where they had people that cared about them, could receive professional mental health support quickly when needed and had a stable environment. I think you're vastly underestimating how damaged and yearning for attention a lot of kids in the state system are. They often misbehave because they're hurting, have no stability at home or have unmet needs and are on endless waiting lists. Strict expectations that are cheap to implement and follow through on, are all state schools can afford and do. When parents actually work with the school and follow through on sanctions and behaviour concerns at home, it does work. However, the stability of sanctions and clear expectations that schools provide, are sometimes the only stability many kids have.

I didn’t say it doesn’t work it’s because you didn’t do it properly- there is no need to be so defensive.

I said it would be very very difficult to implement this into a mainstream high school because it is contrary to the prevailing culture. You can’t just read a book and then expect change to happen.

My point was there are schools all over the country where children are educated with these principles from 4 years old (and it’s supported at home), and in those schools it does work. Not that every kid there is perfectly behaved all the time, this is the real world after all.

As for saying fuck off every morning, I’ve worked in plenty of PRUs where teachers would turn a blind eye to this as long as the kid was there and not kicking off.

PRUs are so different to mainstream school though. The behaviour accepted in them isn't something that would be accepted in a mainstream...that's why they're in the PRU.
Any behaviour system works if implemented from age 4 and supported at home. If that was the case in the UK, there would be a lot less teachers getting attacked.

This was my point- mainstream schools don’t have the staff, money or time to just change how they do things. And many parents wouldn’t support it if the teachers were inclined to try. And many schools have so many children with much bigger issues than they could support in this way.

This 100%

I know they are different, I’ve worked in normal schools too. I was just making the point that teachers do turn a blind eye to stuff like that if it is worth it in other ways (I’m not a teacher btw, I’m a social worker. And I home Ed so I don’t really have any skin in the game personally, only professionally, and my role brings me into contact with the most difficult/disadvantaged/needy etc kids- not the thousands that are just getting on with their education).