To think some people don’t think opportunity is out there and so they remain in a lower standard of living?

[upugotep]

Sort of inspired by the post about what makes a high earner, it reminded me of a friend who has gone through her life literally never thinking she can earn more.

We had massively different backgrounds and it was expected of me that I should go into a professional job and progress etc. Around ten years into our friendship in our very early 30s, my friend was talking about her ‘wealthy’ family friends, whose dad at 50 had just been promoted and was now earning 52k. She followed this up with ‘I can’t even imagine it, I will never be on anything near 50k.’ At this point I was on 58k and hopeful that my pay would increase a lot in future.

I didn’t say anything other than she might be surprised if she put herself out there that more could be earned.

What I found odd about it is that she is highly intelligent, very employable, personable, just brilliant really. It’s purely her lack of belief in another sort of life and her expectations of herself that hold her back. I am slightly better educated than her but only because of my background and she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me. I actually think it’s a dirty secret that those ‘at the top’ like to make out they are something special and it’s unattainable when actually it’s not. Why on earth should my friend think 50k is unattainable when she was only 31?!

"We had massively different backgrounds"

This might be slightly blinding you here to the likelihood of this second part "she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me"

I used to work mentoring brilliant people from poor or socially disadvantaged backgrounds and they all experienced, multiple times, being overlooked for roles they were the most qualified for, and overlooked in the job for promotions too. It happened too widely and too regularly for me to believe it was just bad luck, or just their own attitude.

@gloov my friend doesn’t even put herself out there though, to be in the running.

This struck me as well watching a documentary about the pensions issue with BHS. A woman was talking about having worked there for 20y+, and she had always really enjoyed her work, loved being part of the family etc. But her pay topped out at 25k.

Whereas I couldn't imagine doing the same thing at the same level for that long, and thinking that I could rely on that income and employer for life.

But then I've found also that it's much, much easier to climb rungs once you hit the 50k level than below. You become skilled at justifying your value, and there's a built in assumption of competence.

I wouldn't contemplate applying for a role paying less than 15k more than my current salary, and I'd be confident that someone would hire me eventually.

And at that sort of salary, it's easy enough to ride out gaps between employment.

You sound like a Tory.

That’s how the class system works in Britain. It teaches working class children their place in society from an early age. And their accents and background always flag up their roots- so she may be qualified to be a contender in an interview but she is also right that she is highly unlikely to get the job too.

The failing isn’t on her, it’s on the class system.

The challenge is making aspiration something not to be ashamed of. Snobbery works in both directions.

I do? How?!?

@ReleasetheCrackHen she doesn’t have an accent though. As I said, in an interview she would likely get it over me but she just doesn’t think she’s capable. It is baffling to me!

If you're surrounded by folk telling you to know your place, don't blow your own trumpet etc it's really difficult to see why you should try and achieve anything. Folk commenting on those who try as having ideas above their station. It's all part of the ground in idea that working class people should be happy with what they've got.

I think there is a massive lack of decent careers advice. It shows on the high earners thread, most of the posters on there don't seem to think it's possible to be a high earner or what route that would take after school.

It's an attitude that comes from within. If you dare to do better you're seen as a Hyacinth Bucket type.

I'm sorry but this is bonkers. It's being a Tory to acknowledge that people tend to stick to the same social demographic they grew up in and may not realise it's possible for "someone like them" to enter an entirely different wage bracket?

You're massively underestimating the impact of having different backgrounds.

I think you are presenting things here a lot more simplified than they are. It so much depends on your education and professional experience - has your friend studied the same subject (to the same level) as you that you think she is capable of doing the same job? What about her actual experience?
Let me give you an example of myself, I am educated to a Master level in the social science field. Like your friend, I am hard working, intelligent and likeable. Guess what, no matter how many opportunities I tried, including changing jobs and "putting myself out there", taking training etc... I am pretty much in the same boat, the maximum I've earned is 26K and I dont foresee this could change. Many of the jobs advertised in my field that are higher pay require extensive experience, which has been a chicken and egg situation as I can't get the experience unless I get hired... My education doesn't seem to have helped in the slightest (I appreciate this is not the same for other lines of work).
If I'm lucky, maybe at some point I'll get towards 30K but I don't ever imagine earning anywhere near 50K. Your post sounds patronizing, as if it's that easy to just look for opportunity and get a highly paid job.

Whereas I left school with only GCSEs had no real idea what I wanted to do and drifted up the ladder only gaining my qualifications once I was in an over 50k a year job and thought I should do something to prove who I am, forgetting my CV speaks for itself.

I could say you should would and could do things instead of others but the truth is there is no real pathway to get to the well paid jobs other than working your way into opportunities when they present themselves.

My own mother has literally made comments about me "getting above my station" & is very much of the opinion that "people like us" don't do "those sorts" of jobs. £25k is good money to her (and we live near London).

I went to uni around full-time work in my late 20s and I'm training to be an accountant now. She wrinkles her nose and says "but what do you actually do" as she only really has experience of jobs in manual/skilled production/ service type industries. My work isn't tangible to her.

I struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. It's so ingrained.

I think being exposed to people in professional or skilled roles regularly is really beneficial (I.e. going to dinner at friends house and hearing about their parents being academics/ nurses / solicitors etc would have been eye-opening for me as a child/teen).

No actually I get this. Dh and his sibling raised in the same household with the same parents. Dh went to uni and got a graduate job in his field. Rose through the ranks through hard work and gaining more skills. Earns over the £65k quoted on the other thread.

My SIL did A levels and seems to just do office admin jobs, she has said her current role is worth between £23-£25k. She has been in this latest role almost a year, incredible praise and feedback from the manager. She is smart, organised but never pushes herself. Recently her manager was off sick, she took on loads of the responsibility to keep stuff going (small business) and I told her when she has her year end review she should go in armed with the above and beyond things she has done over the year and ask for a pay rise. She was all well no I don't think they would give me a pay rise. I said why not ask? She will not negotiate her salary and so she will just remain an employee who does more than her job title and never ask for the pay increase.

She is mid 40s so this isn't something new, she has always done this. Done above and beyond even taken on some supervisory stuff at every company she has worked at but seems stuck working for relatively small companies rather than national ones where there would be more scope to progress. There is a lot of opportunity jobs wise too. She cannot afford a holiday, even UK breaks, gave up her car a couple of years ago after it was written off just couldn't afford a new one and complains about having no money but never does anything about it. I don't know why.

I think people also underestimate how much people’s own family hold them back

Being told they’re not smart, people like us / them don’t do that, know your place etc. No point in studying.

Your parents / family attitude is probably one of the biggest barriers to social mobility and it starts from childhood

^ also this.

I wanted to be a vet, I was predicted As/A*s at GCSE but our careers advisor said "oh its very hard to be a vet. How about veterinary nursing".
In hindsight I'd love veterinary nursing, but the salaries were far lower than for a veterinary surgeon, & there was no encouragement to consider the impact of earnings, just "this route is too hard".

You are not wrong OP. This country has a problem with low aspirations. Reverse snobbery.

Anyone who has done well or aspires to do well is sneered upon as being privileged unless they are a crack addict or had multiple teenage pregnancies. Coming from an average stable background makes you not worthy of success.

The number of posts on these threads with weird responses accusing high earners of being fantasists makes you release how low the bar in this country is.

If you are successful, earn a lot, then that should be congratulated, not sneered upon.

I think it’s easy to underestimate how hard it can be to see yourself in a different light. If you imagine £50k is a huge salary and the preserve of other better, brighter people it can be very difficult to change your view of yourself. It can also feel very risky to put yourself out there and possibly fail (which reinforces the idea that you can’t do it).

People are comfortable with the familiar, even if the familiar isn’t great it’s a known entity to them.

YANBU, I was thinking the same this morning. I was casually browsing jobs and the number of companies who seem to be actively seeking out people with less opportunity or disadvantage for entry level jobs was quite high.

To be honest while I think the Tories are a shower of shit, we’ve also got a strong ‘blame the government’ mantra which is standing in the way of personal responsibility and bettering yourself. I see it all the time on here, people citing fairly weak reasons why they ‘can’t’ work more hours, or move to find a better paid job, or go back to work now their youngest is in school. It seems that any issue no matter how small is an acceptable reason not to take responsibility for your life and instead blame others.

It’s also interesting that the British public seem to feel entitled to stay living in the area of their choice no matter how expensive. ‘Just build more social housing’ is the answer apparently, despite the fact we have neither the space nor money to do this on the scale that would be required.

Other cultures are happy to move for work and opportunity - look at Eastern European’s. Poland is a country of hard workers who have made personal sacrifices to better themselves and now their economy is booming and set to overtake ours very shortly. Many have slogged away in the U.K. for years and have now returned home to a much better lifestyle and prospects. Good for them!

I really think this is true. I had a teacher in secondary school suggest I could be a lawyer and my family teased me about for ages, falling about like "Can you imagine Coffeetree with a briefcase, walking into her law office like ooo I'm a lawyer"! Contrast that with other families, where that would be a perfectly normal life goal.

It definitely had the effect of me being a paralegal for ages until qualifying in my late 40s. I really thought I wasn't clever enough!

I’ve been brought up like this

better to not to even try as you’ll only fail anyway

You can’t be it unless you can see it.

I grew up in a poor city outside London. The very smartest kids from my area aspired to be teachers or maybe work for the council. At a push they wanted to be doctors. The very very richest people in our town would have been maybe GPs on low six figures.

It was only when I moved to London that I realised kids the same as them (brightest in the class) would aspire to be tech entrepeneurs or film stars or hedge fund managers on millions. Not all of them would make it sure but certainly more than those who never knew these jobs existed.