To think some people don’t think opportunity is out there and so they remain in a lower standard of living?

[upugotep]

Sort of inspired by the post about what makes a high earner, it reminded me of a friend who has gone through her life literally never thinking she can earn more.

We had massively different backgrounds and it was expected of me that I should go into a professional job and progress etc. Around ten years into our friendship in our very early 30s, my friend was talking about her ‘wealthy’ family friends, whose dad at 50 had just been promoted and was now earning 52k. She followed this up with ‘I can’t even imagine it, I will never be on anything near 50k.’ At this point I was on 58k and hopeful that my pay would increase a lot in future.

I didn’t say anything other than she might be surprised if she put herself out there that more could be earned.

What I found odd about it is that she is highly intelligent, very employable, personable, just brilliant really. It’s purely her lack of belief in another sort of life and her expectations of herself that hold her back. I am slightly better educated than her but only because of my background and she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me. I actually think it’s a dirty secret that those ‘at the top’ like to make out they are something special and it’s unattainable when actually it’s not. Why on earth should my friend think 50k is unattainable when she was only 31?!

The idea that there's some inherent nobility about choosing to earn less money because it makes you less grabby/capitalist is ridiculous and also an indulgence: it assumes that someone else is going to pick up the slack while you pat yourself on the back for living in noble poverty

why does it have to be a choice? are people not allowed to be content in their lower paid work? to not want to chase more cash because whatever it is they are doing works for them? I teach - you are suggesting that I shouldn't do that because I don't earn as much as I could with the level of qualifications I hold. A kind of sarcastic 'you're being noble' because I could do more. Your suggestion is that I'm somehow a lesser person because I don't see the value in chasing money over everything else I have in life. You're ignoring the very important fact that if people don't do the lesser paid jobs then everyone loses. We need cleaners/baristas/supermarket workers/nurses/teachers/social workers.... You seem to be saying that anyone who earns less than whatever you consider to be 'good money' is somehow a bit stupid and not fulfilling their potential. Bottom line is that we can all be happy at whatever our level might be. Bottom line is we all deserve respect for finding whatever place it is that works for us and contributing to our wider society. - society is a jigsaw, we're all the pieces, we fit it all together one way or another. Many of us couldn't do our jobs if there weren't people earning less following on behind us. Or do you suggest I chase the money and stop teaching? What would happen then if all of my colleagues followed me?

And in schools today, we are seeing the impact of the persistent emphasis on only STEM matters. I spoke with a lower 6th former in tears just before the holiday who wanted to study my subject (languages) but had had parents who had told her it wasn't important. Her heart is not in the subjects she is studying. She wants to do something else. It's all very well telling our young people to pursue the money, the high flying careers, but if they want something different, they shouldn't have to be fighting for it or made to feel crap because of it. Being the best that we can be isn't only about what we earn. There's a balance to be had.

ReleasetheCrackHen · Yesterday 09:59
That’s how the class system works in Britain. It teaches working class children their place in society from an early age. And their accents and background always flag up their roots- so she may be qualified to be a contender in an interview but she is also right that she is highly unlikely to get the job too.

The failing isn’t on her, it’s on the class system.

This is such rubbish ^

My parents were working class and what would be described as poorly educated, (my father can barely write)
I went to an appalling Comprehensive, years wasted ducking flying chairs.....
yet l am now a high earner and have been since my 30s.....my working class parents subscribed to the.... you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and if it is not working try harder attitude.....you can do whatever you want if you are willing to set goals and make sacrifices. BTW l still have a regional accent and it has never held me back.
It is chip on shoulder attitudes that hold you back.

I don't agree about it being instilled in the working class that they know there place.

I come from the East end of London, working class parents, who did have a good work ethic and did everything to the best of their ability.

I was lucky in school to be fairly bright and got a good set of O levels. My dad just about let me do A levels but made it clear that was it, I had to get a job at 18 and earn my keep.

I was aggrieved that I was bright enough to do a degree so decided to go back in my early 20s to do so as a mature student.

Ended up after that getting a job in an international company and now a senior director there. Plenty others there from working class backgrounds.

You can only blame your childhood for so much, then it's up to the individual.

One big thing is generations of working class kids were expected to work in the local industries, coal, steelworks, shipbuilders, local factories.

A couple of generations ago the mindset was Grow up, leave school, job down the pit the next day. It didn't really matter what qualificstions they got in school, family wasn't going able to sacrifice the money for uni. At best they'd be able to work their way up to supervisor or charge hand. But they were earning a decent wage, supporting their own family not replying to government top up benefits.

Then the '80 hit, the big industries, were no more, huge areas of mass unemployment. No hope. Leave school get a job in tesco.

Lots of well paying skilled work has been replaced with NMW jobs with no prospects. And little hope.

Hope the big thing is lack of Hope.
So we do need to make sure kids realise they can reach the top and education is the way forward.

@Amberfromcamber well said. As I said in an earlier post I come from a Midlands mining town and yes that was the attitude. There was also an understanding in lots of families that you knew your place, didn't move on and remained around locally for your parents. It then seeped in that lots of people then had a chip on their shoulder about anyone who didn't stick with that path or did well in terms of money or career progression . It's sad this is the case, but indeed it was and you still see it today in some of the Brexit vote- comments like 'well if I can't work abroad or live abroad- then why should anyone else' - some of the biggest supporters of remaining in EU were actually working class people of working age who got off their arse , moved away and used the opportunities available. Whereas some of the biggest mouths when it came to voting leave invariably had strap lines in their social media like 'school of life/hard knocks' who had done bugger all to improve their prospects. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being contented with your lot, everything wrong with then displaying a ginormous chip on your shoulder that others haven't taken your path

I generally find that people who think like you don’t have any idea of what other peoples’ lives are really like and the practical barriers to entry that exist for them. There are not ‘opportunities’ enough for every one of the 70 million individuals on this island to do what they want to do and it is as simple as that. There is nothing that comes without a cost and that is a barrier tp entry when you have nothing - nothing, not that “it’s only a tenner, or a fiver” that so many think.

Its true that relevant and appropriate information is very difficult to get hold of, there is that. But barriers are real. Another example is student debt - no matter how many people claim that it is not real, it is real and it is a burden and it does have an impact: and the rules can be changed and it could be called in. Rules over student debt are changing right now, for the worse once again, and who is to stop it?

@Sugarfree23 and that is very true too- I feel that the chip on the shoulder thing is partly due to a huge loss of local well paid jobs for blue collar workers and all the subsidiary work- admin, management etc I'm not totally sure what the cure for this is but I sure as hell don't think it's the current situation .

@RosaGallica I agree with you too- certain things have crept in over the last 30 years that make it harder to actually 'get on' without significant family support if you are young or money if you are older. Renting places privately is one if you want to move, as it's now a nightmare of computer scoring, guarantors - even for rooms in many cases

So we do need to make sure kids realise they can reach the top and education is the way forward.

How can they all reach the top? Are there 70 million jobs “at the top” of every sector? Obviously 70 million aren’t needed all at once, but is there enough for everyone out there who works for it? How many workers to management are there in your place of work? In mine it’s something like 100 to 7, plus a number of intermediate posts for wannabes that are actually paid only a few pounds a week more than the rest of us, there’s maybe 2 dozen of those.

No, there is now a clear ‘in crowd’ at the top, with huge wage gaps between the service workers and the top, and who only let in those who they get on with socially. Education, ability and skills make little difference, not when nothing pays the cost of living. Only who you know and are connected with by blood - and their wealth, more to the point- makes much of a difference now.

I think a big issue with this discussion is that we generalise about working class /middle class. Everyone's experience is different. There isn't a universal working class experience because there's a whole spectrum of family values, as well as huge differences in schooling, rural vs. Urban settings etc.

I'm well aware that I've been lucky and have had support, even when it hasn't necessarily been financial. But I've also seen others really struggle. A lot of kids grow up in chaos and poverty and it is difficult to shake off the impact that that has. If you've experienced trauma, rejection etc, putting yourself out there for promotion may feel 100x more difficult than for someone with a different early life experience.

@Baconisdelicious

why does it have to be a choice? are people not allowed to be content in their lower paid work? to not want to chase more cash because whatever it is they are doing works for them? I teach - you are suggesting that I shouldn't do that because I don't earn as much as I could with the level of qualifications I hold. A kind of sarcastic 'you're being noble' because I could do more. Your suggestion is that I'm somehow a lesser person because I don't see the value in chasing money over everything else I have in life. You're ignoring the very important fact that if people don't do the lesser paid jobs then everyone loses. We need cleaners/baristas/supermarket workers/nurses/teachers/social workers.... You seem to be saying that anyone who earns less than whatever you consider to be 'good money' is somehow a bit stupid and not fulfilling their potential.

Of course people are allowed to be content in lower paid work, and you're totally right that there need to be some people who do the less well paid jobs for society to function. I'm not saying anywhere that there's a correlation between job type and intelligence.

What I'm talking about is the perspective that its inherently immoral to want to maximise your income and that people who choose to earn less have some sort of moral superiority over those for whom money is the primary driving factor.

I come at this from a feminist perspective and from the perspective of someone for whom earning money and maximising the amount of money I earn is literally a necessity for the quality of mine and my daughter's life (because I'm a lone parent and the sole breadwinner).

The view that people whose employment choices are primarily driven by social value are superior to those whose choices are driven by money has an unspoken assumption that there is always someone else (almost always a man) to do the financial "heavy lift", leaving them free to do the socially valuable or creative work. It's absolutely fine if your life allows you to do this and all power to you if you sacrifice the financial heavy lift to devote your life to endeavours that improve society.

But please recognise that that's quite a privilege. And it's a privilege which is not afforded to all of us and critically that the fact you have this privilege doesn't inherently make you a better person.

And also critically recognise that if you signal to girls and young women that they should always prioritise the social value of the job they do over its financial value you are in effect steering them towards situations where they will downgrade their financial autonomy within a marriage or partnership. For women, being able to stand on your own two feet and not having to depend on a man is pretty critical.

Quite. A lot of highly desirable jobs nowawadays: particularly jobs in the media, digital media, TV law or many "creative" industries are effectively off limits unless your parents are wealthy enough to subsidise you not only through university but for several years afterwards while you do poorly paid internships, freelance work etc to get "foot in the door" jobs. A lot of people, already crippled by student debt and unable to afford London rents, quite understandably don't even bother trying.

50 years ago these industries were much more meritocratic: a clever kid with a degree had as good a chance of getting into these industries than one with wealthy parents and connections. And that was good because you saw the views and opinions of people from less privileged backgrounds reflected in the national consciousness.

Obviously not everyone can and should go into these professions but in my view it matters that professions like this which set the national agenda and determine debates about important things should be open to people from a range of backgrounds as opposed to a narrow echo chamber of people who all went to the same universities and come from the same towns.

I also find it's a lot of "who you know" as well. You hear of kids leaving school who's parents have great connections and can get them a decent paying job with or without a degree. There's also the prestigious unis who promote networking and allow you to enter the industry with connections. Your foot is already in the door. Then when a promotion comes out, they've already earmarked who they want for the job but have to do the formalities of interviewing (externally normally) and getting people's hopes up when they're face just doesn't fit who they want to really employ.
I think that foot in the door very early on is very important and unfortunately some people weren't given that opportunity

It strikes me reading other threads as well that there's a big divide between those who family/lifestyle plan, and those who don't.

Whilst it may not be immediately helpful to someone who already has three kids to ask why they chose three when they can't change it, I think that it's a bit unfair to pounce on people who made a conscious choice not to if they're honest about having made that decision.

It seems to have a massive overlap with those who plan/develop their careers, and those who carefully planned smaller families.

I grew up in a midlands mining town and at one point had a very interesting job but it was 12,miles away and caught the bus every day (40 minutes) local people there couldn't understand why on Earth I would do that.

DH heard something similar while on bus in last place we live a midland town - that was when he got onboard with moving away to get kids away from such attitudes.

DH family are all working class - main in trade which according to MN means they should be multi millionaires rather than doing good to okay to having gone through lean times - all of them told DH he had the brains and to go further so should make the most of his chances. Gave him the confidence to ignore the terrible careers advice to aim much lower he was given. My DMum did similar for me.

It seems to have a massive overlap with those who plan/develop their careers, and those who carefully planned smaller families.

We had three kids all planned because we wanted three kids - yes there has been an impact on my career but I'd save house deposit by then and frankly wasn't enjoying the very male closed shop I'd found myself in which paid very well but lots of unpaid overtime and not fun environment to be in - frankly I've enjoyed the kids much more.

Would I have change my mind on number of kids if I'd been happier in career - possibly. Though DH moved his career to new areas in same time - so perhaps we both weren't informed enough about what the work entailed again perhaps due to lack of connections knowing people in those fields prior to entering those careers.

I also find it's a lot of "who you know" as well

DSis tried for Law and basically found because we had no connections at all it was pretty impossible for her to get on - we also knew someone from our uni days who did get on in similar position though it took longer than their cohort- so it does happen for a select few without connections.

This was a factor in steering one of our children away from it when school kept suggesting it - that and it frankly didn't seem a good fit for them or their interest.

Can we unpick this a bit? Who were these people who you felt your DSis needed to know? And how far did she go - undergrad degree, Legal Practice Course, training contract? Most law firms have fully transparent recruitment processes and very strict rules around nepotism; even the old days of giving jobs to clients’ kids are more or less gone.

If you mean knowing people who could give good careers advice, maybe that is a fair point as it is quite a complex world to navigate. But you can find people to give you advice in many places without being connected to them.

Her parents are also wrong. I studied languages and earn 4 times as much as my science-qualified brother.