To think some people don’t think opportunity is out there and so they remain in a lower standard of living?

[upugotep]

Sort of inspired by the post about what makes a high earner, it reminded me of a friend who has gone through her life literally never thinking she can earn more.

We had massively different backgrounds and it was expected of me that I should go into a professional job and progress etc. Around ten years into our friendship in our very early 30s, my friend was talking about her ‘wealthy’ family friends, whose dad at 50 had just been promoted and was now earning 52k. She followed this up with ‘I can’t even imagine it, I will never be on anything near 50k.’ At this point I was on 58k and hopeful that my pay would increase a lot in future.

I didn’t say anything other than she might be surprised if she put herself out there that more could be earned.

What I found odd about it is that she is highly intelligent, very employable, personable, just brilliant really. It’s purely her lack of belief in another sort of life and her expectations of herself that hold her back. I am slightly better educated than her but only because of my background and she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me. I actually think it’s a dirty secret that those ‘at the top’ like to make out they are something special and it’s unattainable when actually it’s not. Why on earth should my friend think 50k is unattainable when she was only 31?!

Do a masters in construction law at kings college London and become an expert witness in construction-related disputes?

@Kalodin, according to this you can progress to Project Director and Construction Director (up to £100k).

I'm quite surprised by the salary rages for urban planners & civil engineers - as incredibly responsible roles with lasting impact, I'd have thought they paid more!

If you're more into the planning than the construction aspect of your job - it looks like you have wizard project management & logistics skills. Both those areas have tons of scope. (I enjoyed logistics, and nearly moved sideways that way myself. Big earning potential.)

I have a couple of thoughts on this one, I am visually impaired, just bought my first home in Greece, set up an organization when I was 23 years old, and moved to Vietnam, or I lived for several years, and have done my best to do as well as I can, even though I have had to create a lot of opportunities for myself.

it has not been an easy road. I am quite resourceful, and always have an eye out for things that are free, free classes, if I can speak to someone, for example, a tradesmen, for a couple of minutes and just learn how to do some DIY from my home, I will. but many people don’t expect anything out of people with disabilities, if I were to sit at home, all my life, nobody would bought an eyelash.

I know quite a few people with a visual impairment, some of whom can see much more than I can, and have university degrees, and have had more experience than I have, I am almost totally blind from birth, but many of them just get jealous of me or they say I should be grateful for what I have. They don’t take into account how much I have struggled throughout my life. I have had to rent privately, live with mice, I was evicted a few months before I bought my home, after being taken advantage of by the landlord, who just was using me because I was visually impaired, and it made her look like a better person than she was. So why shouldn’t I buy my own home? Yes, it has been a challenge, but I’m learning every day and I enjoy living here.

not only this, but when people with a disability want chains, and change happens, because somebody works very hard to make it happen, they complain and get jealous of the person who makes the change. I have always tried to break glass ceilings, and I don’t think I will ever be able to stop. but I do pay a price, and I much rather have the few good friends that I know I can trust, for this reason.

interestingly, enough, in Greece, I have met some real estate agents who have assisted rather high-end clients, and getting mortgages and getting their properties, and she is always asking me what I am going to do with mine, and Innoway, it’s a challenge for me because somebody actually has high expectations for what I could do with my home.

When I got to uni people were taking Economics.

I had no idea what Economics was!

That's how different backgrounds can be

See, I read this and still don’t have a clue what you are talking about. No offence. It’s just not my world.

^

Ok....so stay where you are. Or maybe Google the words you don't understand??? Get an idea??

Oh isn't that interesting. I never thought of the reverse scenario.

Thank you @GarlicGrace . I'm aware of the project manager roles, I applied for a couple but was told i needed Engineering or Site Manager experience and currently arent getting exposed to that at work enough. I am intending on purpusing the Engineering route more, just need to strategise how. The MD role is my aspiration and something i could get to in my workplace now, but I would definitely need to take on a dual role. Urban Planners don't typically end up in MD positions, it seems anyone from any other department can end up there but there's never been a Planner... mind you, maybe I could be the first!

I absolutely love the legal side of stuff @Delphigirl But never knew that was a job! Thank you. I currently very much enjoy pouring over Case Law in planning. Always wondered if I'd end up becoming an Inspector

Some people just truly aren't bothered about striving for more money and a career and are content with what they have. I personally couldn't be bothered with the stress and time involved to have a big career.

You come across as "if only you worked harder, you'd get further" like "you know you can fly, jump out of the window, you just need to flap your arms a bit harder, you know you can do it". Yeah right, as if life was that simple.

maybe your friend is happy as they are. Just get on and live your best life and let your friend do the same.

Don't whatever you do, give your friend unrequested advice on their life chances or you could soon be minus a friend!

@ChocChipHandbag I fell out with my mum & was kicked out at 16, & didn't finish A Levels.
I worked various admin jobs (including veterinary receptionist/reception manager), did an access course and then went to uni in the evenings around full-time work.
Now training as an accountant - the degree was unrelated but enabled me to get onto a grad scheme.

At 10 years of experience and on £58k, I doubt very much that your friend who doesn't have those work experiences and is at a low level would compete with you at interview. Perhaps you have a streak of inadequacy yourself if you can't see that you have gained certain skills and knowledge over 10 years plus however many more have passed. Confidence can be an important skill within jobs too; sales pitching, presentations, training, strategy, analysis and any manager level needing to review budget all require a level of confidence to be done successfully.

There are certainly some structural issues. I've argued with only some success to hire non-graduates for roles that really don't need that high an education level, yet still offer the same type of career paths as graduate schemes. A useful career shortcut is that when companies grow quickly, the growth itself pushes people upwards because of natural demand that those who have been there longer fill responsibility gaps. Again there is a confidence issue though; people have to be willing to take risks and believe in themselves enough that they'll pick something else up if it fails.

Timing of starting work and early luck also matter more than it logically should, because getting into the first "real" job quickly is what creates confidence that it's possible to move between jobs. Some age groups take more career risk than others; those joining the workforce 90s-07 are good, but even so many years later the caution of those who joined the workforce 08-12 is noticeable. I pity graduates of the last couple of years with covid then this year having degrees withheld, and sadly think it will knock confidence for many of them.

Couldn't agree more with this. Plus, the background factor is huge.

I was told by a careers advisor at 14 (that met me that one time for 15 minutes) that I wasn't clever enough to go to university to train to be a teacher. She suggested that I go into nursery nursing instead.

I come from a background where only my uncle has a degree across my whole wider family. So there was no one at home to tell me that that careers advisor was talking rubbish and that I could do so much more.

I did go into nursery nursing, which I enjoyed, but it was never what I wanted to do. It's notoriously low paid, so I nannied for a long time instead. Better wages, but not many options for progression long term, unless you give up all other elements of your life.

I met DH at 18, and he was my biggest cheerleader from that point. He would send me brochures for different unis so that I could go for it, but what had been said to me, and my background were ingrained, and it took me many years to listen.

I'm 40 now. Yesterday, I got my degree results, a 2:1 in Education Studies. I work as a TA, regularly cover my class teacher, and I start my QTS training through work in the new year.

It's only by being around DH that I began to believe that I am worth more.

He comes from a similar background to me. But he never received that dreadful advice, so he never doubted himself. He went to uni and is a high earner. Careers' advisors should not be allowed to discourage anyone from following their dreams.

£31k is below average for a call centre manager (which that obviously is) in my experience. It's an underpaid role generally.

Not at all. But I do not believe that earning well is something to be congratulated on. It's not a measure of a person's value to friends, family or wider society. You're not ' better' than someone who earns less than you or who doesn't feel the need to climb the greasy career pole. Money is important in life, but lots of it doesn't automatically mean everything else will fall into place.

Bollocks. I came from a working class family my parents instilled a work ethic in me from a young age, they wanted me to live a better life than the one they had.

@LaMaG

I was the same in reverse @Coffeetree, groomed from a very young age to be a university graduate. I don't think anyone stopped to consider my preferences. I was always good with my hands and at about 15 I knew I was good with hair and said maybe I could be a hairdresser. There was a silence then everyone burst out laughing. It became a joke, if we saw someone with bad hair on TV or whatever they would be like maybe LaMaG will sort her / him out ha ha. Even heard my mum telling her family the hilarious anecdote. Yes i had opportunity but we are all trapped in our family expectation, esp when decisions about career are made while under their care.

This is interesting as my family was exactly like this. We were pushed really hard into white collar/professional work as children. It never occurred to anyone that we would do anything else.

This turned out to be OK for me as it played to my natural strengths but my DSis, having shoehorned herself into a white collar profession she clearly hated for years, is now retraining as a carpenter in her mid 40s and feels she's clearly found herself.

My parents were very preoccupied with the way they were perceived socially and they would have considered blue collar work as a sign of failure.

Those sorts of professional/social prejudices can work the other way around too. On balance I'd rather be pushed hard into a high-achieving, high earning profession than be told I can't ever achieve anything but there are downsides to this approach too.

@Baconisdelicious

I do not believe that earning well is something to be congratulated on. It's not a measure of a person's value to friends, family or wider society. You're not ' better' than someone who earns less than you or who doesn't feel the need to climb the greasy career pole. Money is important in life, but lots of it doesn't automatically mean everything else will fall into place.

It doesn't, but not having it pretty much guarantees everything in your life will be much harder.

Of course money isn't a measure of anyone's worth. But dismissing its importance is naive. The ability to be financially self-sufficient and provide for yourself is very central to your ability to have agency over your own life.

I understand why people don't want their children to become overly focused on money and I think it needs to be instilled that certain types of jobs don't make anyone better than others, but I think signalling that money doesn't matter is also quite a dangerous message: particularly to female children.

I see quite a lot of people on here talking about "climbing the greasy career pole" as though it was something negative and slightly dubious which people only do for selfish reasons. In fact for women and girls the ability to maximise their own income is what stands between them and dependence on a man or the state. So it worries me a bit that there are so many threads on here which present work and careers in such essentially negative terms.

So well put.

Very true. Adjunct to that, the finances or this entire country depend on the relatively small group of high earners who are net contributors to the system. A rising tide lifts all boats; the more people get above that threshold, the more money there is for schools and hospitals and paying people who do essential jobs.

There's a weird Puritanism about it too. The whole "well, other people might have more money, but I hold the secrets of what's important in life", coupled with a sense that it's somehow more inherently noble to, say, work the till at Sainsbury's than it is to hold a senior role in risk and compliance at the same organisation. Either way, you're selling groceries.

Apologies I misread it! I see you're a carer - if that's a sector you want to stay in care managers earn fairly good money. They work under incredibly stressful conditions but the good ones who run large organisations and homes get (probably nowhere near their true value!) Salaries some are speaking of here.

Surely standard of living isn't just about the things money can buy?

I am unlikely to earn more than £50k and although it's not perfect, I actually enjoy my work, it's creative, I have autonomy, it's actually meaningful and it's super flexible and I also have excellent benefits.
For me to earn more I would need to lose some of these things.

There is a joy in feeling like you have enough, and that you're thankful for what you have instead of always chasing that next thing.

@AlligatorPsychopath

There's a weird Puritanism about it too. The whole "well, other people might have more money, but Ihold the secrets of what's important in life", coupled with a sense that it's somehow more inherently noble to, say, work the till at Sainsbury's than it is to hold a senior role in risk and compliance at the same organisation. Either way, you're selling groceries.

Totally agree. The idea that there's some inherent nobility about choosing to earn less money because it makes you less grabby/capitalist is ridiculous and also an indulgence: it assumes that someone else is going to pick up the slack while you pat yourself on the back for living in noble poverty.

I also think there's something very gendered about this. I understand that many women with young children understandably choose to downgrade their careers while they have childcare responsibilities, and that's fine. But the implication that we should all aim for quieter, lower impact jobs which preserve work/life balance assumes that all of us are in a position to do this. If you're a lone parent or a female breadwinner (as I am) you have no such luxury.

I see this a lot in the way people talk about work on here: all these cliches about "no one on their deathbed ever wished they'd worked more" and "only dull people enjoy work" etc. It's everyone's choice to work less if they have the means to do so. But setting up to girls and young women the idea that working hard and earning money is inherently shameful, pointless or problematic is a very risky idea to push. Working hard and earning my own money have been a literal lifesaver for me. If someone had taught me as a girl that I shouldn't bother I'd be up shit creek now. And no one ever tells men and boys that "climbing the greasy career pole" is a bad idea.

Self-limiting

I'm watching this post with interest ad I fear this may be me. I'm going to learn from it

I grew up in a middle class family and every career idea I had I was told I would not succeed and that I should ‘manage my expectations’. These views were instilled in my parents from their parents and they have stayed in the same job for over 30 years. I’m unlearning those behaviours and beliefs but when I was younger it had a detrimental effect on my self confidence and abilities. I disregarded their advice and followed my gut anyway and by 26 I was earning 35k.