To think some people don’t think opportunity is out there and so they remain in a lower standard of living?

[upugotep]

Sort of inspired by the post about what makes a high earner, it reminded me of a friend who has gone through her life literally never thinking she can earn more.

We had massively different backgrounds and it was expected of me that I should go into a professional job and progress etc. Around ten years into our friendship in our very early 30s, my friend was talking about her ‘wealthy’ family friends, whose dad at 50 had just been promoted and was now earning 52k. She followed this up with ‘I can’t even imagine it, I will never be on anything near 50k.’ At this point I was on 58k and hopeful that my pay would increase a lot in future.

I didn’t say anything other than she might be surprised if she put herself out there that more could be earned.

What I found odd about it is that she is highly intelligent, very employable, personable, just brilliant really. It’s purely her lack of belief in another sort of life and her expectations of herself that hold her back. I am slightly better educated than her but only because of my background and she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me. I actually think it’s a dirty secret that those ‘at the top’ like to make out they are something special and it’s unattainable when actually it’s not. Why on earth should my friend think 50k is unattainable when she was only 31?!

There are so many factors in play but if we want to become a more productive and wealthy nation we need to tackle them. Off the top of my head I can think of people in my life affected by the following:

• lack of knowledge of available careers
• lack of careers advice after leaving full time education and especially for career changers
• lack of funding for adult education
• inadequate diagnosis or support for low level neuro diversity
• Gendered expectations
• Not knowing how to negotiate salary or understanding worth
• changing employment/labour landscape and the difficulty of breaking away from traditional local industry
• lack of education on basic business skills so people feel empowered to be self employed
• no examples or mentors available
• family expectations
• family or local prejudices
• Salary secrecy

I'm very much working class - just recently change jobs and now on 6 figures. Age 47.

Its not down to class, its about the drive and ambition of the person in the class

Don't insult the poor woman!

OP, it is clearly about class. My workplace is full of people in top positions who either present themselves as having had a paid education or have. There is definitely a class ceiling and I work in the public sector.

My parents worked in roles that did not require education beyond senior school. As much as I have tried to get beyond that by getting a degree (and doing very well and getting a 1st and an additional award) my own self belief has held me back. I can't talk in public and constantly question myself and my ability. This is because of class, it isn't something I can snap out of as it has been ingrained in me that I am somehow beneath people who have been more fortunate.

My mum asked me if I regretted not staying in education beyond undergraduate level, and in a way yes, I do regret it, but I could no longer afford to do a masters or the funded studentship I was told to apply for. I couldn't live on fuck all because I had no help from family or a partner that was doing well in his career.

Money and privilege have a lot to do with whether someone has self belief to do well in a career, or logistically can put in the extra hours or take a low paid traineeship to get into a high paid role. This is why we have shortages in some professional careers. Educational psychologists are in short supply, but the route in means years of study and low pay, which many can't afford.

I'm working class and we are definitely taught that blowing your own trumpet and is actively bad. Telling people about your achievements, even your superiors at work, is actively frowned upon.

I think Gen Z working class people will be different and have more confidence, but anyone older, I think it's been instilled in us far too deeply to think that high salaries are for already rich people and not for us

Yes, I suspect a lot of it is down to parental attitudes. She has never been taught to aim higher.

I think it's a lot to do with upbringing. I was literally dragged up my outlook on the world when I left school was to work In retail and try to get a council flat. That was what I'd been born into and just thought they were my options.
My son has been brought up in a completely different environment, not rich but comfortable due mainly to DH job. (Im still stuck in retail) He is 21 now and talks about his future in a way that didn't occur to me as possible, and at 21 having completed an apprenticeship now earns 45k a year.
Was your friend also brought up with low expectations?

I see quite a few people coming into higher education in later life having left school at 16 and got a job in a factory, supermarket etc. It's cultural and usually they have some kind of revaluation of their life after a significant event (illness, birth of child, loss of parent who told them they couldn't do it etc). I've got one graduating this year with a good job already lined up and I'm really proud of him even though I'm only his lecturer.

See, the thing I always thought is that if you are from a poor background surely there is an even bigger incentive to be more career orientated and earn more money. If you are from a wealthy family, you don't actually need to try as hard as you will need less money esp if your family pays for your university education, gives you a deposit or even gifts you a house. You can have a really great lifestyle on an ordinary wage.

I have rich parents so while I often tell myself to forget that, I know that I will probably get a big inheritance (though I don't want to rely on it). But I know. Dh on the other hand knows he can only rely on himself. And his regular call to his sister often involves the question 'do you need any money, can i send you some?' So a person from a poor background not only has to support himself or herself in a country where 50% of FTBs get help but also has to help out poorer family members. If you ask me, they probably need to earn 20% more than the middle class person just to bridge the gap.

Some fields that people go into won't ever make them high earning though, and that's okay too. I'm not particularly shy about blowing my own trumpet and have more qualifications and degrees than most people. I'm really good at my very specialist job. I earn FTE £34K per year, but don't work full time. At some point I may move into a managerial role and earn £45 ish. I till probably top out there.

Its not all to do with class and confidence, some people choose to work in lower paying fields. They tend to be roles that are crucial to society (teaching, nursing, etc) but will never be big bucks. We shouldn't discourage that either

Cross posted with @rosetintedmemories2023 really interesting post. I'm not from a rich background, but I had help with my house deposit and have always known that there is help available to me in a crisis. Maybe that impacts career choices as well, without a safety net I may well have had to become a hedge fund manager 🙈

I am like you.I have a degree and lots of experience in lots of different fields. (Have recently self diagnosed with adhd which explains a lot) but have never earned more than £33k pro rata when I did a term time only job for a bit
I am nearly 46 with twenty years experience and only took 9 month mat leave for each dc

See, the thing I always thought is that if you are from a poor background surely there is an even bigger incentive to be more career orientated and earn more money.

But it’s all relative, I remember feeling very well paid on £18k because I had grown up with nothing so that £18k felt like riches to me - I felt I had achieved. Many years (couple of decades) on I’m better educated and have used the opportunities open to me and am significantly better paid, but at that time I was very proud of what I had done. It would have been an easy thing to stay in that line of work and not seen my salary increase much over my career knowing I was still much better off than my parents were.

This is a thing too. I hope it's getting better but I have been in interviews when younger and the interviewer sneered at the school I went to (yes it really happened!) and was surprised I'd got a degree etc. It was clear he didn't see me as fitting into the organisation. I think (hope) it happens less now and large organisations have focused on a more inclusive way of recruiting staff although I'm sure this kind of thing still happens. I'm really conscious of encouraging my children to do well and find out about all sorts of careers available to them. And to not sell themselves short as I have done in the past. The encouragement and positivity you grow up with as a kid really does impact you in your working life.

But she has the background….that’s enough by itself.

Its obvious to me, she was a girl, and her brother was a boy. Very few households socialise boys the same as girls.

I remember negotiating for a salary and my working class husband thought I was mad to even suggest what I asked for. He just hadn't known people earn that much before somit was a massive shock when they paid it right away. I can imagine having everyone around you have that attitude would hold you back.

If anyone here can give me some solid career advice on what I cam switch to, to attain a salary of £75k+ I'd be grateful!

As a PP said on 1st page "you don't know it unless you see it" and I think that's particularly true.

I'm happy in my career (as a Planner in Construction) but I'm aware that I'm coming close to the top of my pay now for my career (having spoken to my friends in the same sector) unless I make a jump to a Consultant for a massive firm and become CEO.

What careers are out there that are high earning? I honestly haven't a clue on what it would be and how to get into it.

I suppose the other issue for a lot of people is that risk of starting again! I'd be worried about having to take a potential pay decrease to start my career again, especially as I'm the higher earner in the household.

Look out for new areas of work that are either up and coming or there are brand new jobs being developed. Are there training opportunities your current employer can fund that would help you move sideways into another industry with more growth potential? Make your own fortune - get onto Google and search out where your field of work is heading, find the research papers, look into the start ups, look at local colleges and universities and distance learning schemes.

Is there a professional body attached to your employer or current area of work? Look on their websites for training programmes.

Look at where you can specialise and become a subject matter expert and push yourself forward into being that SME, get the reputation as THE person for that area of knowledge and don't sell yourself short!

Also find out what field you do want to work in and search round their careers and development pathways and see which posts your skills would transfer into.

If this were true, then you’re saying the reason the upper class are still the ruling class is due to their superior drive and ambition (and intelligence no doubt). That is ridiculous. Ambition, drive, intelligence are equally distributed in a population. The reason so few working class are upwardly socially mobile is categorically not due to a lack of these virtues.

@ReleasetheCrackHen her Mum was retraining whilst SIL was at secondary school, upskilling her original qualifications to work on new cutting edge systems so she could progress in work. SIL had great A level results and could have gone to uni. She had a good role model in her Mum, her Mum also made sure my Dh could cook, iron, clean etc so no gendered roles in that sense. SIL had lots of extra curriculars in which she excelled, this was a girl who was motivated and doing well. I honestly don't know what happened.

This is exactly why the U.K. will always underperform the G7, what a terrible, terrible attitude.

I grew up with professional parents and with decent privilege. I was encouraged to succeed. Yet I was in a rural area with few opportunities and parents who had a limited scope of the world. This was pre-internet, so even finding out what careers were available was difficult.

I did succeed in making my way out and getting the big job, bigger than they dreamed for me, but it was very difficult. I had no one to help me and even the people who were encouraging me to do well thought I was making mistakes because I had to take steps outside of their comfort zone. I don’t think it was easy for me, I was highly motivated for a variety of reasons, some of them stemming from some really awful emotional things I wanted to escape.

so much of what we dream about our futures comes from the people who we are surrounded by, especially in our formative years. It’s part of why parental expectations are important. It is also sadly why having school peers with parents with high expectations can also help with success. Being surrounded by a culture that discusses opportunity lets people know what is out there.

Thank you @Lifechangesalot I do all the training that becomes available, is suitable and would benefit me. I had recently asked my Director to be exposed more to Engineering as that's where I want to be, that's where the money is here. But I was shot down. Told I'm needed too much in my current role. Currently negotiating a payrise on that basis. But I think I'll end up moving.

Good idea to make me THE person for a particular subject, there are two areas I have a lot of expertise on for my field and am the go-to in my company for that. However, typically everyone outside the company would use a Consultant in those fields as they'd be suitably qualified. Perhaps I need to obtain a couple more degrees to have that dual aspect.

Her mum was role modelling a life where it is marriage, children, SAHM first and only later in life should you even consider upskilling and a career.

Plus do not underestimate the influence of her father and wider family, community, and even school teachers.