To think some people don’t think opportunity is out there and so they remain in a lower standard of living?

[upugotep]

Sort of inspired by the post about what makes a high earner, it reminded me of a friend who has gone through her life literally never thinking she can earn more.

We had massively different backgrounds and it was expected of me that I should go into a professional job and progress etc. Around ten years into our friendship in our very early 30s, my friend was talking about her ‘wealthy’ family friends, whose dad at 50 had just been promoted and was now earning 52k. She followed this up with ‘I can’t even imagine it, I will never be on anything near 50k.’ At this point I was on 58k and hopeful that my pay would increase a lot in future.

I didn’t say anything other than she might be surprised if she put herself out there that more could be earned.

What I found odd about it is that she is highly intelligent, very employable, personable, just brilliant really. It’s purely her lack of belief in another sort of life and her expectations of herself that hold her back. I am slightly better educated than her but only because of my background and she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me. I actually think it’s a dirty secret that those ‘at the top’ like to make out they are something special and it’s unattainable when actually it’s not. Why on earth should my friend think 50k is unattainable when she was only 31?!

I could not agree with you more. I am from a working class background, the child of a cleaner and a factory worker. The people who I knew and considered wealthy were nurses, police officers, teachers, supermarket managers etc At 22 I'd set myself the by the time I was 30 wage goal of my take home being £1,500 a month. I thought £1,500 was the most I would ever get.

When I was in my late 20s I decided to make a career change (after a lot of confidence building from my middle class DH and middle class friends) and now I take home just over £3.5k a month and I know I could move job tomorrow and up that easily. I needed a HUGE confidence boost and my eyes opened as to what was out there and what I could do.

I think that often kids (and then adults) aspire to what is around them and that you can half you expectations set out for you at a very young age without realising.

I'm from a poor northern city. No family support, no school support. No careers advice. I wouldn't have a clue where I'd even look for jobs over thirty grand a year.

I don’t think I’m worth £50,000 a year and would feel rather guilty if I was paid that. At 43 I’ve never earned more than £25,000. I’m autistic and thought I work really hard and love my work, I’m hopeless at interviews and massively lack self confidence, and don’t benefit from networking as I just can’t do the social stuff. I had no idea what I wanted to be growing up, my mum was disabled and didn’t work, and I had no good careers advice and just did a degree in something I enjoyed (that I got a first in but still felt rubbish at). I’d love to earn more but I honestly don’t know where I’d even start. I think background and social confidence are the biggest factors in earning more.

Her Mum worked and decided to increase her employability by learning the latest computer program for her work not marriage, children blah blah. In fact she had left home and lived miles away in a house share with some other women before her marriage to FIL so not straight from her Dad to her husband either. Re the reskilling, I meant part of it happened whilst SIL was old enough to see it and remember it. FIL and SIL talked about her training recently, MIL died a few years ago.

FIL thinks his daughter is absolutely great and spent an eye watering amount on her wedding in fact he favours her over Dh a lot. Apple of his eye. Wider family, none on MIL side, only child of two only children. Yes on FIL side, disabled does that make a difference? Held down a job since he left school, his wife is also disabled, also worked since school. Both beat the odds especially FIL's brother. Grandad in military. School teachers loved her, polite, doer of homework and still see her as she lives in her home town. She was also teaching younger students in her extra curriculars as well so had a lot of young kids looking up to her. I feel like you are projecting a little.

I was the same in reverse @Coffeetree , groomed from a very young age to be a university graduate. I don't think anyone stopped to consider my preferences. I was always good with my hands and at about 15 I knew I was good with hair and said maybe I could be a hairdresser. There was a silence then everyone burst out laughing. It became a joke, if we saw someone with bad hair on TV or whatever they would be like maybe LaMaG will sort her / him out ha ha. Even heard my mum telling her family the hilarious anecdote. Yes i had opportunity but we are all trapped in our family expectation, esp when decisions about career are made while under their care.

People aren’t generally taught how to be confident and have high self esteem in state school. Most people I know with private school backgrounds are brimming with confidence and think a lot of themselves.

I do find this very striking. On every thread about high earners without fail a bunch of people will tip up and describe people who earn over £50k of being "fantasists". I mean maybe some of them are but they can't all be and it's very telling that a lot of people literally cannot comprehend that a woman can earn over £50k per annum.

I also think the way your family talk about aspiration is hugely important. I think I've achieved far more than my natural intellect or capabilities in large part because my parents always encouraged me to think big and never to feel anything was out of my grasp. My parents made plenty of mistakes but that's one thing I'll always be grateful to them for.

I can't imagine how damaging it must be to be told to "know your place" when you're growing up or to be discouraged from trying something because it's not for "people like us". I take my hat off to people who have achieved in spite of that kind of upbringing: you have massive self-believe. Kudos.

Your point about skills acquired in studying is a fair one. Though economics is definitely an in demand and serious subject to study.

I was referring more to the expectation that social science graduates have about earnings vs those who study STEM. I think a lot of people go to university thinking that all degrees are born equal and the truth is far from that. Probably why we have so many graduates in low paying jobs. Not sure what the answer is to match degrees to skills needed.

Some of it is down to confidence. And that is where V private education comes into its own imo. I’m currently dithering over scrimping and saving to send my kids privately meaning they also have a long commute and we will really struggle to send them or sending them to a local school. The confidence factor that is instilled into privately educated kids is a is a big factor in my decision.

Maybe it’s just not so important to her. People have different values.

I kind of suspect this only really works in corporate/professional jobs where you can waffle in meetings and take credit for a team you manage who may well be doing perfectly OK on their own due to their individual competency/experience.

I've had those kind of managers when I was a bid manager for a top three security provider. The kind of people who sat in meetings and said "we need to do xyz" to the director whilst the whole team sat there already fully aware of what they needed to do and knowing said manager wouldn't really be adding much value either way.

Or the team members that would rush off to get the kids, leaving us to pick up the slack, and would promise to log on later. Then they would log onto the system, open a few docs and make a few tiny tweaks right before bed so that in the morning everybody would see they were working the latest/last person to log out despite the fact the rest of us did another two hours they just logged in for ten mins before bed.

When you've got to fix a crane or diagnose and get a truck engine working again, or perform open heart surgery etc you can't bullshit your way through. I'd imagine it's the same with many jobs.

Exactly this

@Swrigh1234 hm still agree to disagree. I studied theology and am senior in investment banking. The only skills i needed from my degree were the ability to manage my time, argue my case and learn on the job. Some of the very best people I work with are drama grads, as drama teaches you to be intuitive, great with people and a strong presenter. Excellent skills in finance. My ex studied history and became an accountant. The boards of FTSE 100 companies are packed with humanities grads.

See, I read this and still don’t have a clue what you are talking about. No offence. It’s just not my world.

But on the other hand, it's a very middle class thing IMO to have the self importance to believe that most working class people actually aspire to be like middle class office workers. IME most really don't.

Certainly many men idolise football players, MMA fighters, race car drivers, boxers, etc - what society sees as 'real men'. They want the money but few men really dream of being a besuited financial consultant. Successful working class guys don't usually want to be like professionals. They're more likely to want an Audi RS6 lol.

I focus on men because that's 99% of the people I work with, and because construction workers now have an average salary £10k above the average graduate - even bricklayers do nowadays IIRC. I come across a lot of men doing very well, like the 25yo Jamaican lad I spoke to today who has just qualified for crane ticket and been offered a job on £65k with possibility to earn loads more if happy to do stints away from home and in Europe.

I feel like a lot of professionals don't really have any concept of how well people do in other sectors. Certainly not how much more easily they earn a good wage. Like the builder at the hospital job I've been doing recently. Works eight hours a day at £25 and two at overtime rate of £37.50. So £275 a day (£71.5k a year). All he's been doing for past few months is opening the barrier and directing trucks to the appropriate place onsite after checking on walkie talkie. No doubt he is qualified in other tasks but £70k to effectively be a gateman/traffic marshall is hilarious.

I have an autistic son and think it’s amazing that you got a degree and are doing a job you love. I hope my son has this.
Don’t put yourself down.

Summary: specialise in what you're good at and be the only one doing it then sell your skills to the highest bidder.

Research training to skill up and don't be afraid to change jobs to gain experience and/or promotion/training.

I agree, I just don't understand where to start with that. Google?
I'm a social care worker on a little over NMW. (I do have a degree, studied as an adult.) Where does that take me? A totally new field of work, I guess. But what?
Also surely this means you have to put loads of effort into feigning interest into random this you don't care about, if you're just going for the money. How do you keep that up?
This thread has inspired me to do something about actually trying to have a career but I still feel totally lost!
Fwiw I had a middle class upbringing with aspirations but I still can't get my head around jobs I don't "see" in daily life. Some of my siblings' careers baffle me!

Yes, indeed.

I really appreciate that OP is "checking her privilege" but there's a heck of a lot of replies from posters implying that people who aren't like them should be like them Well said!

Also surely this means you have to put loads of effort into feigning interest into random this you don't care about, if you're just going for the money. How do you keep that up?

Not in the slightest. If you're good at what you enjoy doing and what comes naturally you can find the career that works for you. If you're a money chaser you can head in that direction, if you're after a job well done you can go in that direction if you just want a job to keep you busy you can go in that direction.

Social work degrees open a lot of doors in a lot of sectors. Why did you do a social work degree? Think like a 6 year old "when I grow up I want to be a...." Brain storm how to get there/turn it into a reality.

What did you become in the end?

I think careers advice should include a bit on what the prospective earnings would be. Not just what jobs you are suited too.

But I do remember hearing a radio program along time ago about the influences refugee children had on local inner city kids. The refugee kids saw education as their way out of poverty. The local kids were down beat, they'd lost hope, had mindset of their was no jobs, they'd end up in a NMW job with top up benefits. Like the rest of their families.

In Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has bumped her gums about closing the attainment gap but really she's pulled the top kids down not pushed bottom kids up.

But a huge chunk of it has to come from kids by give them the belief that yes they can go to Uni and become a lawyer earn decent money, not just stack shelves.

I don't have a social work degree, I have a psychology degree. I studied it as an adult because I was interested, but I don't have what it takes to be an academic/research which is what I'd do with it if I was just pursuing interest!

I don't think the things I enjoy doing are things you can make money from. I have some skills/interests that could be the basis for a job but only ultra competitive, low wage type stuff.

I honestly don't know what I want to do. That's part of what I mean about jobs you don't see in daily life - I don't know what jobs exist! I will give it more thought though, as I have been feeling recently that an actual career and job that engages my brain would be really good.

I think careers advice should include a bit on what the prospective earnings would be. Not just what jobs you are suited too.

They already do. I went to school less than 10 years ago and then studied a levels at a college. Both school and college gave prospective earnings on degree courses. No one thought studying drama or travel and tourism would get you the same salary as law or medicine. There’s the benefit of the internet now as well, so many websites such as the government’s or the national careers service will indicate prospective earnings

In my home we were actively encouraged to go out there and do things - a very positive and can-do environment. No one laughed when we had big dreams - they wanted to hear them.

Then in school we are told we are the brightest and have good futures ahead of us. This constant praise leads to good self esteem and a strong belief in your capabilities. This puts you on a very good course for life.

It took me a long time to realise that not everyone has this experience and that I am fortunate to have had this shape me.

As a parent I know the most important thing that I can help my child with is to develop and instil in them a good sense of self-esteem. I value it above everything.

I agree with the posters that say it is the UK class system in operation. This is exactly where it comes from! The working class are kept down not only by those above but also by their own contemporaries who mock them for having ideas above their station. Sigh