To think some people don’t think opportunity is out there and so they remain in a lower standard of living?

[upugotep]

Sort of inspired by the post about what makes a high earner, it reminded me of a friend who has gone through her life literally never thinking she can earn more.

We had massively different backgrounds and it was expected of me that I should go into a professional job and progress etc. Around ten years into our friendship in our very early 30s, my friend was talking about her ‘wealthy’ family friends, whose dad at 50 had just been promoted and was now earning 52k. She followed this up with ‘I can’t even imagine it, I will never be on anything near 50k.’ At this point I was on 58k and hopeful that my pay would increase a lot in future.

I didn’t say anything other than she might be surprised if she put herself out there that more could be earned.

What I found odd about it is that she is highly intelligent, very employable, personable, just brilliant really. It’s purely her lack of belief in another sort of life and her expectations of herself that hold her back. I am slightly better educated than her but only because of my background and she would absolutely be a competitor to me in an interview and probably get the job over me. I actually think it’s a dirty secret that those ‘at the top’ like to make out they are something special and it’s unattainable when actually it’s not. Why on earth should my friend think 50k is unattainable when she was only 31?!

This post just needs one response really.

Check your privilege.

Why?

I mean, that's literally what the OP is doing?

Checking/investigating privilege I mean.

I agree but I also think at some point we have to throw off the shackles of what our families have done to us and make the best of our lives (like you did). I say this with no ‘privilege’ at all, my home life was total chaos, social services, family court et cetera

Have you told her what you think?

I agree with the PP who mentioned that you need to know the jobs exist to aim for them.

I have a degree, not a great one, went into admin roles after uni. Followed by having my DC and working part time in admin type roles for a long time. At 40 I got yet another admin role, but full time, hoping I could get somewhere in earning more money. I really hoped one day I might earn £30k as an EA. That was it, I didn't see how I could possibly earn more than that. However, the admin role I had stumbled into was in a small pharma company and I got the opportunity to learn other skills. I changed to a more technical role, left for a new company on a 35% pay rise, and have had 2 promotions here. I now earn £45k which would have been mindblowing to me 5 years ago. I do expect to earn more now. It is easier to aim for it once you are up there.

I see it all the time on here, people citing fairly weak reasons why they ‘can’t’ work more hours, or move to find a better paid job, or go back to work now their youngest is in school. It seems that any issue no matter how small is an acceptable reason not to take responsibility for your life and instead blame others.

It's quite difficult to see a different future and the possibilities when you feel you're just about managing as you are. All change involves risk, sometimes to financial security and to living circumstances, if you've been raised to be risk averse, or have taken risks that haven't worked out as you hoped sometimes it feels very safe to just keep on the same track. It's no accident that many successful people come from a privileged background and have family support to back them up while they get established/if it all goes wrong.

This discussion is very pertinent to me at the moment as I consider what my next steps are career wise. I could stay in my very secure, comfortable job which fits my family (but isn't particularly inspiring), or expand my small business which could bring a lot of financial benefit, and is challenging and inspiring, but brings no small amount of risk. When you have other people to consider, and no financial safety net other than that you provide for yourself it's not as simply as "just go for it". I can understand people feeling quite stuck, while also feeling constrained by circumstance and wishing for better.

I think you're also underestimating the impact this has on people's wider family not just what their family life was as a child but what it's like now. I'm at a level in my job now where I could carry on going up and start earning a lot of money. No-one else in my family can, they all do odd jobs in between claiming benefits. If I earned a lot more than them my life would be radically different to theirs, or I'd hide it and feel awful when they were struggling for money. My relationship with my siblings and relatives would never be the same. I would rather stay at my current level and keep the family dynamic.

OP; you completely dismissed the first answer. So is this thread about structural disadvantages or is it about you and your friend?

@declutteringmymind yes I’ve said she could absolutely do the job I do and that she would likely be much better at it!!

@Thelnebriati I can’t see how the issues are separate? So both, I suppose.

Disadvantages work to actively prevent people getting better positions. Even when you push yourself forwards, you still don't get picked as often as people from the other group.

yes same is true for my DH.

He was on free school meals, his mums is a bohemian type who has never earned more than 16k (but had help with deposits so managed to buy in London even with 4 kids which would have been hard without family help even in the 1990s). His sisters all studied art or music or dropped out of school so have much lower earning potential. Dh studied law and works for a bank so his salary expectations are very different. In fact when he first met me at uni, he told me he had to earn a lot of money as his grandfather had always told him he needed to earn lots to support his mother and 3 sisters. But he is the only son so was the only one raised to be like that. So these expectations can be very gendered.

I remember the younger sister lost her job as a kindergarten teacher and needed a job pronto to pay her rent. I suggested that i saw some remote jobs (from the USA) that paid the USD equivalent of £35k and would be suitable for graduates like herself (she has a masters from a red brick university). She could do it while doing music on the side. She looked at me like I was bonkers and said ' £35k ! I wish. That is a princely salary'. my MIL then kinda laughed and said, 'this is why *insert DH's name and her are yuppies!' Erm.

I wasn’t really referring to people who are weighing up future business plans, more posters who work 8 hours a week and insist they can’t do more for a completely fixable reason. And if you suggest they fix it they just mutter the incantation about ‘you don’t know what’s going on in my life’ and that’s it, they won’t be questioned any more.

I saw a poster say a while ago that the past wealth of the U.K. has acclimatised the public to a certain standard of living that they now feel entitled to whether they work or not, even though we aren’t as affluent as we once were and our public resources are thin on the ground.

I want to see this country move into the future and become a wealthy and vibrant place to live again, but the public need to accept the government can only work with what they’re given by us. If half the workforce are part time and happy to be topped up by UC, or signed off, then we simply don’t have the productivity required to make this a wealthy country with excellent services.

I think schools, universities and employers do quite a good job of providing opportunity but they can’t physically make young people accept it. The good news is it’s quite possible to change your circumstances as an adult if you want to enough.

I do agree to an extent. I grew up in poverty and it hasn't been easy to get into a career. Lots of personal sacrifice, the majority of people I went to school with went straight into work after school and now complain they're stuck in dead end jobs and that I'm so lucky; it wasn't luck it was active choices. Whilst they were spending money on enjoying themselves when younger I was saving, working multiple jobs and studying even if this meant working overnight. I took out huge loans, and whilst they work hard in their jobs that doesn't detract from the fact I lifted myself out of the poverty cycle and didn't have a helping hand. Also agree many people are more than capable of taking on different roles but don't even go for them let alone get them.

This isn't to say people are poor through their own choices and that it isn't complex, but it's that some make choices at great sacrifice to further their opportunities and this is nothing to do with luck.

I think schools, universities and employers do quite a good job of providing opportunity but they can’t physically make young people accept it.

It does warm my soul a bit to know those at my school who were bullied for being studious and mocked for taking school seriously all earn significantly more than their bullies. Ahhhh.

I think it’s got a lot to do with self esteem and self confidence.

My friend and I are the same age and very similar backgrounds - she never finished uni but I did - she had the balls to go for an interview for a job 3 grades above her existing role and got it.

I would never dream of this because I see myself as not being competent to jump that much but in reality I’m constantly being praised in work for running rings around managers- if I just put myself out there more i could probably have the same opportunities.

background plays a huge role. Also, women are punished for asking for raises or advocating for themselves. They are afraid they will be seen as pushy, and they are probably right, sadly.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/27/women-wont-ask-pay-rises

With a lot of high paying jobs comes stress and responsibility. People have different levels of resilience and choose to earn less and have less responsibility and stress.

Background/ upbringing certainly plays a role. This may be why people who attend private schools have a certain air of confidence about them. In a few this may come across as arrogance. However, I think they are taught to be ambitious and to feel good enough to approach anything . Plus they have the skills to do so. In general.

I was also brought up to aim to be in a better position than my parents. I try to emphasise to my kids that having choice in life is invaluable and in order to have choice they need to be well educated and personable and look for opportunities.

I just want to say that I am eternally grateful to all those who don’t choose a job just based on salary. My best friend is a nursery manager she will not earn over £50k. My sister is a nurse in NICU and again she may never earn over £50k. My mother in law is a community nurse and did her degree whilst working full time and she doesn’t earn £50k.

I hope that we can live in a world where we don’t just judge people on salaries but what they do. Just to think these people on what OP says is ‘not a very good standard of living’ that are making such a great contribution to the society in which we live.

Thank you to them all.

Your differing backgrounds are the reason. It is very difficult to transcend social class barriers, no matter how educated.

I am from a very working class background, went to an elite university and became involved in a social circle drastically different from anything I’d known before. The things they perceived as completely normal were things I had thought were reserved for an extreme minority - like their parents being able to fund their entire uni experience, having connections get them work experience placements in top companies, which later turned into jobs, having gone to private school and thus having done instrumental lessons, being able to speak other languages, being talented and experienced in sports. The school I went to had a netball club, a football club and a tiny debate team, the teacher of which forgot to book us into competitions.

These individuals have been exposed to their parents experiences, jobs, lifestyles their whole lives and that is normal to them. It’s cultural capital - they have experiences that children in more working class backgrounds often don’t have access to.

In the same way working class children grow up with their parents’ experiences being normal.

Mine and my acquaintances’ attitudes of normal salaries were acres apart. My first job out of uni, a colleague couldn’t believe our boss was ‘only’ on £85k - that to me was millionaire money. The ‘rich’ people I’d went to school with, their parents earned £50k ish and we all thought they were rich!

It’s very difficult to understand if you aren’t from a working class background, which is why it’s a real travesty that most of our PMs are from that tiny percentage at the very top and will never understand the difficulties that so many face.

I come from a free school meal background and my parents had no O levels and did ad hoc working class work.

I'm now a doctor and have struggled with imposter syndrome over the years. The times I realised I wasn't aiming high enough was when I realised people less qualified or intelligent than me were expecting better things from life than I could ever imagine for myself.

Then I had some CBT and other therapy. Then some career coaching. Plus some anxiety meds.

I'm getting there! Now I do put myself forward for things more often and my self esteem is much better than it was.

My mum still looks shocked when I apply for new positions or that I will only take extra shifts at £x/hr. I would also rather outsource work around the house, rather than spend hours to save pennies, and therefore save my time for family/improving my career/paid overtime.

I agree that this sounds like social class rearing its ugly head again. But I have to say, OP, are you sure she wants what you have? I know that if I go for a higher paying job, it follows that it will take more from me, otherwise what am I getting paid for? That is likely to be the things that I actually love, like art and exercise. Not everyone wants to climb the ladder. There seems to be a bit of societal taboo about being unambitious, and maybe she is comfortable where she is?

I agree to an extent. I grew up in poverty and it hasn't been easy to get into a career. Lots of personal sacrifice, the majority of people I went to school with went straight into work after school and now complain they're stuck in dead end jobs and that I'm so lucky; it wasn't luck it was active choices.

I agree with you to an extent. I too did all my studying while also working full time, with no student loans etc - I paid all my uni fees as I went. There was a lot of very hard work and sacrifice to do so. I also have to acknowledge being in the privileged position to do so, having enough money to fund my higher education, having the capacity to give it the time it needed, not having children so no competing priorities.

Im now a single parent with two children who have complex needs, which makes things much harder because I need a degree of flexibility in my work and, as the sole earner, need security in my work. If I had had children in my 30s I’d be in a secure but dead end job because I wouldn’t have been physically able to dedicate the time I did. There are many factors that can limit, or appear to limit, career choices and lifestyle beyond self belief.