Farm inheritance - ILs should give farm to DH now

[farmerswife7]

I'll start by saying I know inheritance is never guaranteed not an entitlement etc and that we are very very lucky with what we do have now and what my DH will inherit.

I will also state I am not from a farming background and my mum rents so inheritance isn't something I have ever considered. I have always stayed out of what is said in DHs family as it didn't seem like my business.

We met with a solicitor recently to get our wills drawn up, mainly in order to have guardianship set out for DC.

We rent our house from ILs at a very reasonable rate. Both ILs are in their late 70s, they live in the main farm house, we live in a smaller older one.

DH works a lot on their farm. Thankfully FIL is still very fit/ active but understandably is slowing down. DH does not get a wage for this, but as I said we have lower rent.

I originally wanted to buy our own house. But this would have an impact on DH's inheritance tax, there is a farm relief scheme, we are in Ireland. So we didn't buy a house. DH also said there is no point as we will eventually inherit the whole farm and will need to live in the main farm house.

Now the solicitor brought it up when we went in and said about it being better for them to sign it over to DH now in case they end up in nursing homes a lot of the land could end up going in fees.

My DH went with my ILs about a year ago to see an accountant who advised that they sign it all over to DH now. They agreed. But then MIL when to a solicitor who advised against it so they didn't.

I'm a little worried about our financial future now. 1st and foremost I do not want ILs to end up in nursing homes. I genuinely do love them and want them around for as long as possible. DH says "they wouldn't go to one ever" but my uncle is currently in one suffering with Alzheimer's I don't think he thought he would go for one.

I mostly just wanted to vent my frustration.

AIBU to want my ILs to give the farm to DH now? They would still live in the main farm house and receive the farm income btw.

You can “want” them to do things all you like, but it’s not your decision.

Mind your own business and be very thankful that you’re benefiting from reduced accommodation cost.

It's complicated, because signing it over now to avoid potential care home fees could be seen as deprivation of assets. How much would they be left with in their own name to pay for things? In their late 70s, it's also possible that one or both could die within seven years, meaning you pay IHT on the farm regardless. It's really the kind of thing that should have been sorted a while ago.

They might want to speak to an IFA to see what they advise, as it could be a tricky one, especially with the additional rules I imagine around farming in general.

I do think either way you need to have a discussion about finances with them, as currently your husband (and by extension you) are very vulnerable if you don't own property and receive no salary.

What will happen if they do need to go into care though?

Sure ive read this before. Sorta.

I can see why you feel like that not much else you can do though

They wouldn't pay IHT on the farm if family are farming it would they?

I've no idea, that's why I said they probably need specialist advice, given it's a more niche area. I imagine there's a lot of legal bumpff!

And if the signing over is not to avoid IHT in any way but purely to avoid care home fees, that seems like classic deprivation of assets, unless they can demonstrate they have ample resources to draw on should one or both of them need care.

Just in case responders haven't picked up in the op - this is IRELAND so UK tax laws and deprivation of asset laws don't apply / are different.

OP, obviously they can do what they want but the starter I guess is knowing what made your MIL reluctant before.

This post from the Irish Examiner might help re: the implications if they don't change their mind and do need care

Ah sorry I missed the Ireland thing. Definitely get advice on this though, OP, for you all.

I think, OP, you are probably going to get a lot of rubbish advice if you are in Ireland rather than UK, due to the different legal framework. I'm from a farming background though and i do appreciate the difficulties with farms passing down, especially for (usually) the sons who are working and living on the farm but without any formal agreements in place etc.

We were in a similar position a decade or so ago and the farm was given to my DH, and my FIL needed to live for 7 more years to avoid inheritance tax which luckily he did. You may have left it too late unfortunately.
It’s a very difficult discussion to have, but it would be worth having a calm and open discussion about it.
Can you find out the reason it is was discouraged by the other solicitor? They might have a valid reason. Do you have enough savings to pay inheritance tax on the farm and keep the farm in the family? Do your in laws have savings that they’ve put aside for this? All this needs discussing properly and quite soon by the sounds of it.

OP, the rules re deprivation of assets, nursing home Fair Deal etc are so different here in Ireland than UK. You might be better off posting on craicnet.
FWIW I don't think YABU, farming and inheritance is very different to just wanting a house signed over to get your inheritance early from what I can see here. Does your DH have another job, does he not get any wages at all from the farm? I think the Irish indo have a farming advice section it might be an idea to take a look in that?

Not unreasonable. They need to set it up to DH's benefit. Whether that is a trust or a company or something else, they don't get him to give up a career and a lifetime of earnings elsewhere and then sell the farm to pay for a care home or a cruise or whatever.

He needs to disucss this properly with his family, not least to protect you and your children. I am from a farming community and it is common for sons to work for free or very little money on the promise of inheritance. It can go horribly wrong and tear families apart.

I am surprised you haven't moved in to the main house yet. When my mum and dad took over my grandparent's farm tenancy they moved in to the main house when my older borther was born and my grandarents moved to a cottage on the farm (and eventually to a retirement bungalow in a different town when their mobility failed).

As you say, you know nothing of land ownership or inheritance.

The ILS took their financial and legal advice on the farm's future from a farm business accountant and solicitor (presumably, people they have worked with for years and trust) and made their legal/financial plans accordingly.

If you want to understand the ins and outs of their decisionmaking, you and DH could just ask them.

Sorry I should have said it was more from a "what to do about my personal frustrations" rather than looking for specific tax advice.

I should have pointed out we are in Ireland. I am originally from the UK and use the forum a lot, and as I understand tax is different between NI/ Scot/ Eng/ Wales so thought I could just see what people though.

We have to have less than 20% of assets and 'non farm assets' on inheritance so owning a house and depending on how much was paid off could have skewed that. Once you pass that and a few other things, such as have worked a certain time on the farm/ intend to work for 7 years on the farm. There will be in inheritance tax.

The reduced rent, yes we are lucky. But TBF, the hours DH does on the farm for free more than cover it.

The only reason I can think is you sometimes hear horror stories of the 'child' inheriting the farm then selling the whole thing from under the parents. But as I said above that would lead to paying the Inheritance tax.

I am feeling a little vulnerable in that we didn't buy our own house. DH had said years ago they would sign it over. They never did, life kept going. I only really thought about it when our solicitor mentioned it. Yes it probably is all a bit late now.

Also MIL asked after we got married, that when her or FIL dies can they live with us so unless they are in very bad health and I can't cope with it they are very unlikely to go to a nursing home.

When you say that your MIL 'went to a solicitor' was it an actual appointment with an agricultural solicitor about succession? Or was it a meeting about something else and an uninformed solicitor has just bandied around bad advice? The two different scenarios would yield very different answers.

Is your husband an only child?

inheritance and farms is a touchy subject because often one child inherits the lot and the siblings get nothing. I have seen it happen - it’s really hard for those. WHO’s we their older brother get the house, the business, the bank accounts while they get nothing.

on the other hand your husband has worked on the farm for decades - does he really receive no salary? Does he have another job?

i do think you need to sort this urgently. Can you buy a house in just your name? What would happen if you divorce- is that maybe their concern?

And thinking about it, is it an actual farm with your in-laws producing food & feed as their sole source of income (other than you rent)? Or more of a small-holding where off-farm work is done too?

Sorry that should say no inheritance tax.

@Ginmonkeyagain the main farm house was built when DH was about 18. I only found out recently enough when I said to DH why did they build such a big house when his other siblings (zero interest in farming) had moved out and he was nearly an adult. He said the house was built in his name - not sure what that mean. I don't think he is on the deeds. But that intention was that when he married/ had a family he would move in there. That hasn't happened. I'm not really sure how I would feel about living in the main farm though. Would his family still treat it as the home house? I'm not sure. Over all they are very respectful but I have hear horror stories about that sort of stuff.

How many siblings does your husband have?

Also OP you need to be selfish here.

I heard of a farming family were the down worked for minimum salary for decades with the promise of inheriting the farm. Living like you in a house owned by the parents. He sadly passed away before his parents. The farm went to his brother. The wife got ‘her day’ in the house on farm land but nothing else.

make sure your interests are protected - particularly if you have been subsiding your husband for years because of the promise of this inheritance

@BaroldBalonz I'm not sure. But I know that the solicitor they dealt with for years retired and a new solicitor took over the practice she may have had different ideas to the old one. The accountant is not a specific agri accountant but runs a practice in a rural area with lots of farmers.

It's a proper farm not a hobby farm

@jennyjones198080 he has 2 siblings. They are not interested in the farm. His parents have sorted the will that 'everyone' is happy. I think they also heavily financed the building of the other two's homes. I don't know exactly what is in it. Cash wise no he receives nothing. We pay about €200 below market rate for rent and obv are very secure in that we most likely would not be kicked out! He does work for himself also, mainly contracting.
Divorce could be a concern of their. I hope not, I get on very well with them and visit a few times a week.

@Taylorswiftly23 he has 2 sibling

@farmerswife7 are you ready to take on the caring and personal needs of two ageing adults? My grandma became incontinent - and then doubly incontinent in the last 10 years. She needed help bathing and dressing. Do you feel happy possibly being the one changing shitty sheets and undressing a soiled adult for many years?

Even with the assistance of carers - it’s never enough help. The care will likely fall to you as husband will still be working all the hours on the farm..

This is one of the difficult conversations I’ve had with my folks. They both want to
go into homes if necessary after experiencing caring for both my grandparents in close quarters (they moved them in next door to them). And as much as I love my family - I’m nearly 50 and currently manage the care of my eldest (untreatable paranoid schizophrenic after a breakdown 5 years ago) and I don’t want added burden of more care on the horizon.

Good luck and squishes. It sounds like a few expectations need sorting and everyone’s cards need to go on the table. You can’t be sure what care needs they will have as they age.

@jennyjones198080 what do you mean by "The wife got ‘her day’ " I wouldn't say I am exactly subbing DH but I suppose I sort of am as well. He ploughs all his money back into building his business and improving the farm.