Farm inheritance - ILs should give farm to DH now

[farmerswife7]

I'll start by saying I know inheritance is never guaranteed not an entitlement etc and that we are very very lucky with what we do have now and what my DH will inherit.

I will also state I am not from a farming background and my mum rents so inheritance isn't something I have ever considered. I have always stayed out of what is said in DHs family as it didn't seem like my business.

We met with a solicitor recently to get our wills drawn up, mainly in order to have guardianship set out for DC.

We rent our house from ILs at a very reasonable rate. Both ILs are in their late 70s, they live in the main farm house, we live in a smaller older one.

DH works a lot on their farm. Thankfully FIL is still very fit/ active but understandably is slowing down. DH does not get a wage for this, but as I said we have lower rent.

I originally wanted to buy our own house. But this would have an impact on DH's inheritance tax, there is a farm relief scheme, we are in Ireland. So we didn't buy a house. DH also said there is no point as we will eventually inherit the whole farm and will need to live in the main farm house.

Now the solicitor brought it up when we went in and said about it being better for them to sign it over to DH now in case they end up in nursing homes a lot of the land could end up going in fees.

My DH went with my ILs about a year ago to see an accountant who advised that they sign it all over to DH now. They agreed. But then MIL when to a solicitor who advised against it so they didn't.

I'm a little worried about our financial future now. 1st and foremost I do not want ILs to end up in nursing homes. I genuinely do love them and want them around for as long as possible. DH says "they wouldn't go to one ever" but my uncle is currently in one suffering with Alzheimer's I don't think he thought he would go for one.

I mostly just wanted to vent my frustration.

AIBU to want my ILs to give the farm to DH now? They would still live in the main farm house and receive the farm income btw.

He doesn't see it as working for free. It is a common enough arrangement on Irish farms. What is plain stupid though is the farm has not been transferred to him. And he's actually so far received nothing. While living in the old farmhouse paying rent. Worse is the fact that he's improving an asset, OP said he was adding to the farm with his own money. In his drive to make sure OP gets nothing he's lost sight of the fact he himself has got nothing.

The very least he could have asked for was a site and build a fine house on it for their own family. It was madness to go into the old house. As he's a tenant he has no ownership rights. He might have rights as regards his free work, as regards the promise and as regards the improvements he's carried out.

I can't really say Hi ILs, lets sit down and ask about inheritance. I really don't think I could. It's been hard enough renting from them. Any thing I have wanted to change up until very recently has been veto'd. When we originally moved in 10 years ago I wanted to re decorate the whole house. With my own money (well mine and DH). The bathrooms were completely outdated. The lay out of the house is terrible. It is a fantastic plot and a big enough sized house but we weren't allowed. I got my bathrooms done 2 yrs ago after a pipe went and there was zero choice, we split the costs. I still have tonnes of that frost/ pattern glass all over the house though and no chance of removing it or knocking through 1 wall to make better living space.

Sorry I am ranting I don't like complaining about this IRL as I said we are incredibly lucky to have low rent and lets face it a very stable place to live.

• You absolutely can demand a sit down with PIL and DH
• You
• You're certainly long enough married to be told the truth instead of half truths and promises
• You are entitled to a straight talking about what is the plan, from everybody (not the siblings)
• If I were expected to live in the current house for an extended period I'd be demanding ownership, and the sooner you start demanding things the better, because you're going to get nothing otherwise and it will only get worse for you. You've already denied yourself an asset and have instead wasted money on rent.
• It's clear the BIL is putting a veto on you doing anything in the house
• It's outrageous you spent your own money improving it after a pipe leak. These people are willing to take every penny they can off you. And you're so nice and trusting you cannot see it
• I don't think you are lucky, you've been conditioned into believing that.

I do work, salary work. DH also works for paid work doing mostly contracting but he has a trade which he does as well.

OP, you asked what you could do to deal with your frustration about the situation. My answer to that is, I do not really know, but I will say that, as someone from a farming family, there have not only been frustrations, but family feuds with respect to 'arrangements' on the farm.

For example, my mother worked on her father's farm until she married. Unlike some farming families, my mother received a wage for her work. This was many years ago, and by the time she was in her late twenties, she had a tidy sum of money. My father, on the other hand, worked for nothing for his father, but he knew he would inherit the farm, with his brother (his three sisters would get nothing).

She met my father, who was the the eldest son of a local farming family. They had a long engagement whilst she invested her savings into having a family home built on my father's family's farm. They married, moved in and my sister was born.

Then, my paternal grandfather decided that my mother and father should 'give' the house to my uncle (with whom my father farmed in partnership) and my mother and father should move to the derelict farm house on the other side of the farm.

I am not sure why this decision was made, but my parents moved, much to my mother's anger. She spent the last of her savings getting electricity and hot water installed in the old farmhouse. My mother blamed my aunt for putting pressure on my grandfather to move and a feud which lasted until my aunt's death about five years ago.

My mother was also led to believe that she would receive inheritance in the form of land or money from her father. She received an old car and some things of sentimental value. Her brother, my uncle, received the farm and all other assets (as is and was the tradition).

As children, my sister and I were under no illusions that we would receive anything from our farming relatives, including our father. When my father died, the farm was left to my brother, although my mother, now 95, still has large shares in it and he can do nothing without her permission.

I know this does not help the OP directly, but farming has some uniquely archaic traditions.

I'm from a farming family. Parents had two farms, worked together with my dad, uncle and brother. Uncle died, dad died and brother and Mum inherited. Worth approx £2 million - Mum died - brother inherited 2 farms, both with farm houses. He lives in one, his son lives in the other. My sister and I had £5000.00p
each. Shit eh? What can my sister and I do now?

@ontetwo3 thanks for sharing that, it's good for me to read tbh because I am just going along with everything.

@Cailin66 I really don't think DH is trying to avoid me having any assets. I think he just thinks the farm will go to him.

Like when we even got the bathrooms I didn't get to pick the tiles/ loo/ sink/ taps! They just arrived. I don't feel like this is my house, well because it isn't! It isn't a crap house though, I know the sort you are talking about. This isn't the old great grannys house (there is one of those) it was build circa 1970. But my mum says how lucky I am the whole time. I have a nice house in a beautiful area. A husband who loves me. We don't come from much money, when my granny died mum inherited about 5k.

DH doesn't really listen properly or tell me much to do with the farm. He calls into his parents daily and they discuss farm stuff then he comes home. He doesn't not tell me stuff on purpose but I'll find out about things weeks later when something is mentioned.

Yes sorry, he does have assets. He owns all the machines he uses for the business. He also build the shed for them. Which I guess was stupid too since we don't own the land. We do have some cattle but don't own the land they are on we rent that from his parents. I meant we don't own bricks/ land.

SIL is not married/ doesn't have children. You don't know about marriage but I would guess kids are not going to happen she is mid 50s. She has been the driving force behind getting them to get things sorted.

No I haven't seen a will, I still don't really think it is my place. So I do not know exactly what the other siblings have been willed. I have just been told it is fair and they are all happy.

@AnSolas thank you for that. I think I need to print that off and give it to DH!

I am having a look at houses online. Any time I brought up not liking how the house looked etc in the past it was quashed. 'Sure the house is fine' but I am seriously thinking now. I do not want to pay rent for the next, 10 - 15 -20 years and not be able to have a house the way I want to have it.

I am going to tell DH we need to buy our own house. I was happy enough to go along with it before but I do not want to rent anymore I want to be able to change thing in my own house. I really wish we had just built our own house. But as someone said it is likely the planning is in his name so we never would have been granted permission anyway.

Good for you. You'll need to keep firm now because I'm sure that when his parents hear about this plan they'll try and squash it. It'll be a true test of your marriage as to whether he has the balls to stand up to them or whether he just tries to keep mammy happy at all costs.

Start the mortgage application process asap and keep an eye on daft and myhome.

If he starts dragging his feet then you have some serious thinking to do about the future. Are you in a position to get a decent enough mortgage by yourself?

I cant believe they're controlling the colour you paint the walls and the toilet etc you pick in the house you're living in. 🙄
You said you come from a poor background. This doesn't mean you have to settle for the scraps his parents through our for you.

DH has not worked for "free"

He has been "paid" €200pm BIK in a rent reduction for accommodation costs plus is due a future payment.

Think of it as such the same as paying into a pension plan.

If DH is 40+ he has worked for 20+years.
DH will be paid "some time" in.the future.
The farm is worth €1,000,000 this is his payment for the work.
So if the farm is signed over today his annual salary would be equivelent to €50,000 per annum (1m÷20y)

If it happens in 5 years time he earned €40kpa (1m÷25y)

if in 5 years time PIL go to a care home. They have to pay a fixed % of their personal assets to the State for that care. Say this works out to be 25%
MiL owns farm and 1/2 of €200k house (1m-100k)×25% so €225k in fees
FiL owns 1/2 of 200k house (100k×25%) so €25k in fees
If this happens DH's payday drops to €30,000pa (1m-(225k+25k)) ÷25y

PS if the 1m includes the OP's current home its market value has to be deducted.

Ireland has no basis for "US style community" marital assets. DH owns what he earns and inherits and the same for the OP. As in the UK they can buy (pay for) an asset together and have a contract on how ownership is split or the Courts will make a ruling on the ownership portions eg. If it is a house it can still be in OP's sole name. It may quallify under the law of marital protection however if it was always a Buy to Let the Courts could look at this as a business asset and treat it the same as a Combine Harvester owned by DH.

From the OP's point of view as of today she has "earned" nothing from this transaction. And it has blocked her from choosing a house off the farm and paying towards a share in a marital home.

She only "earns" if DH dies or if DH gifts her assets. (Divorce is not a 50/50 split of assets)

OP only gains an asset which she can pass to her children if DH is left the PIL's house and when (IF) DH signs over some of PIL's house to her. He has no obligation to do this and he did not insist OP attends the meeting as a couple.

An asset transfer ring fences that portion of the home as her sole ownership And OP gets to keep the value if the house is sold.

If not the house can still be sold by Court with full market value being used to pay any of DH debts. OP would have to go to Court to argue that she is also owed a portion of the sale value and that she should be paid too.

If he chooses not to do add OP to deed, in his will he only has to make provision for her eg by way of cash or farmland but not the PIL's house.
NB any carehome costs for DH comes from his assets which is a debt payable before her inheritance.
Which could end up with her being priced out of the local housing market and her living as a blended family in her childs household (in the PIL's house).

IMO The PIL's house will never be "yours" while either PIL are alive and living there.
The older people get the less they like change and you know how much freedom you have in "your" current home.
If you move in on death of MIL, FIL may not adapt to change and you are changing his dead wifes choices and distroying their memories. If FIL dies it will always be 100% MILs house.🤷

There are a number of income from jobs in your household
Your job - positive cashflow and no assets(?) and no potential assets except cash savings.
DH contract work - positive cashflow and (high) value assets but not costing in Yard rental.
DH trade - positive cashflow (any assets?)
DH PIL farm employment - negitive cashflow as "improvements" being paid out
DH Farming "independently" on rented family land - positive cashflow but has he a herd number too??.
You want to add a rental at breakeven cashflow but the potential to generate asset in 12/15 years.

DH is currently in business with PIL but you have no idea what role each play in running that business. Nor to you understand how the business works as a whole.
2 of the 3 business partners are going to leave the business,
a) how is DH planning on replacing them?
b) how much will that cost?
c) how will that be funded?

@Cailin66 I really don't think DH is trying to avoid me having any assets. I think he just thinks the farm will go to him.

He may not be actively working to avoid you having assets but this is what is happening.
You currently dont have a pot to pee in so if you want that to change you need to stop allowing DH to act as if his current work choice do not impact on your future living conditions.

Why had MIL decided that the business plan for the farm (which you need to be come informed about and understand) will not work long term? The plan should avoid the large cash outflow for inheritance tax and for carehome fees while providing PIL with a lifetime income and a home. MiL is planning on her life /death and passing on these costs ;which benefits her; to DH.

You and DH need to do out a business plan for your family and build it around you wanting your own home now not on the death of last PIL. Dont rule out building on the PIL's site untill you have gone through all the planning options. (After all If BIL is getting a house in the will PIL can ask him to apply for planning for your home in "compensation" for DH applying for PIL's planning🤪 )
You both need to plan for the others death.
If DH is not willing to work towards a family home now you have a "DH problem" in your relationship.

So he not working on the farm full time? He has a completely separate income? How many hours a week does he work on the farm?

Try growing a penis? It gives you a significant advantage when it comes to farming inheritance.

I would personally speak to your DH, try and seek some more advice on this.. the more info you have the easier things will be! Also ask your husband to speak to in laws about what plans there will be etc, there is absolutely no harm in asking, especially if one day they need full time care, you guys will need a heads up of what the plans are to the financial side can be covered/arranged now.

my grandad owned a farm (although this is in the uk) and my mum has three other siblings (half siblings) the farm was worth over £500,000 however they made considerably more due to selling the land to property developers for holiday homes.

my mum was advised by a solicitor to accept the £12,500 that her step mum (granddads wife) was offering her, my mum was the first born child, helped work on the farm my mum literally only ended up with that out of the money I mentioned above..

each other sibling has benefited massively by about £150,000 each.. my mum was devastated as she grew up on the farm and a lot of my great grandparents furniture was still there, my mum tried asking for some pictures of the family and my grandads current wife wouldn’t even let her have one of them.

try and get these things arranged while there still able to, my grandad developed dementia and had no will.
you need to know what the plans are so you can make arrangements yourselves.

Right so DH said he has approx €200k in assets (tractors etc) I did not know this. And that most of the loans are paid off.

I know on here every one says you should have joint accounts but we don't because he would buy more farm machinery! I have my account with my wages, he has his account with his business. I tell him what money I need from him monthly and he give it to me.

I asked him about his siblings. He said they have all sat down as a family and his siblings are being well looked after and genuinely are happy. PILs were both going to sign over on the advice from their accountant who they have worked with for year. It was the solicitor who said not to. She also won't have a conversation with the accountant she said it has to be by post.

MIL was very sick last year and thankfully is much better now. I don't think they are trying to deceive me or anything I think just her health took priority (as it should)

However, he said he will speak to his parents. Tell them he has put in place his own will and that the solicitor said about section 117 and passing on some of the farm now. Or putting things in place.

I can't really get a nice house on my own. But I did say to DH about us maybe getting an investment property and he said he'd be open to that. He doesn't want to move. TBF we live in a beautiful place we really do.

AnSolas the wife is entitled to her Legal Right Share. 1/3 in the case of a will. Of all her husbands assets. Tax free.

Inlaws and hubby are avoiding her owning anything, have put her in a crappy house, which she is forced to accept as is, not allowed to change, and had to accept the cheapest tiles and sanitary ware from the local builders providers, for which she was gas lit into part paying for, and even more gas lit into being grateful for.

I am tempering my language as I’d like to shake the OP out of her slumber. I’ve seen too many cases like this. In my opinion you’re being totally screwed over because of your sweet nature. Remember one thing, you are not blood. And where there is money there is war.

OP keep all receipts, any ‘enhancement’ expenditure could be important. It establishes rights. But in this case it’s very tenuous.

Working for €200 pm, on the basis that you might one day inherit the farm, is nonsense. So is being forced to live in a rental until both parents are dead. I'd say the BIL, SIL and OP's husband could end up with equal shares. Or the BIL could get the lot.

I'm wondering why the OP's husband actually wants the farm, if it isn't just to sell it. I imagine the income it's generating is pretty low. Maybe he should just concentrate on his own business, be paid for his farm work, buy a house and take a one third share of the assets when the parents die.

I hear a lot about what he wants... But after one conversation you've already watered down what you want.

You're valuable. You're worth pleasing too. He seems happy to please himself with fancy farm machinery and his parents with whatever they want and you just get lip service.

Maybe he'll consider buying a crappy rental apartment to keep you from leaving... But that's it. When push comes to shove will he even carry through on that?

One of the houses needs to be in your name. Or you need to buy a house by yourself or with him that you could live in. The fact they won't even trust you to decorate to your tastes shows how controlling they are.

I think you should DEFINITELY use AnSolas email printed off as a basis for an agenda for a meeting you all four have together. You, H, MIL and FIL.

You cannot even begin to think this is none of your business, this is nonsense.

@Cailin66 I do think hearing about section 117 shook DH a bit as well would it be tenuous. He has worked continuously on the farm since leaving school apart from about 1 year when he lived abroad.

DH said earlier as well, he didn't want to say but he knows his parents are a little worried 'with me' I possibly should have said this earlier. But 3 years ago I was admitted to a MH hospital for a few week. But for the most part I have been very well since then. I guess they don't trust me. Although I have had a lot of chats with MIL about money and she thinks I am sensible. I just had a bad patch (MH issue was nothing at all to do with money). DH also said they know of two locals ''Where the woman left and took half the farm'' so I guess these are very legit worried for them.

@Filament he 100% does not want to sell the farm.

@ILuvJam I'm not really sure he would TBH. But he might. I feel very grateful that he/they stuck by me when I was sick so I do want please them. A crippling fear of abandonment is an issue of mine! I am probably too much of people pleaser

The new solicitor knows her stuff. She’s brought up S117. You didn’t mention this to us earlier. Solicitor very sensibly will not deal on the phone with the accountant. And accountant not putting advice on writing demonstrates the legal advice is better.

Who hired the accountant?

No s117 is not tenuous. I can tell you if I was happy in a given built house worth 200k and my brother had a free house for 15 years getting a one million farm plus new house I’d be going for S117 myself. That’s why it must be signed over now, with protections for the parents, and with you in decent accommodation.

Siblings being happy and saying they are happy is a different matter.

You need a side deal with husband, drawn up legally, after the transfer to you, that he’ll sign over a site to you to build a house on. My BIL has signed over 3 sites, 1 son, one daughter and a nephew now have lovely houses. You’d be amazed what can be done if needed.

I’m glad you’re being a bit more assertive.

It is outrageous that once again you’re being gaslight, this time over your breakdown. It must be soul destroying living in a house where you can’t change a thing, have to put up with your own mother telling you how lucky you are. You’re working full time, bringing up children, not party to discussions that impact your future. And you’ve moved country. They are all so lucky you are such a lovely person. There’s plenty money for everybody to be happy and still preserve the farm.

Agreed on her right but (I am open to correction on this) his provision for the 1/3 need not be the PIL's house (which would be their marital home) and to get the 1/3 OP has to get the Court to overrule DH's will (DH could ignore legal advice and leave OP zero).
He could leave her the "movable assets".

At the moment MIL has all the assets.
She is legaly competant and under no duress she is free to sign over all that she owns to DH (including Op's current home, cash, equipment, animals, herd no etc) with the single exception of the PIL's marital home. She is prohibited by law to signing that over without FIL signing too.

To stop the other assets "leaving the marrige" FIL would need to seek a divorce.

On MIL's death her estate would only be the house. So FIL gets
a) the full house children get zero
b) his minimum legal share and the rest is either via her will or equal between the DH /BIL / SIL.
So
33% FIL
22% BIL
22% SIL
22% DH

FiL dies and best case DH gets 33% total( 55%). BIL / SIL dont want to cash out.

DH has a 55% share in marital home plus the farm and before his death he same right to transfer all assets (bar a marital home) in his name to the children. But owes the State care home fees of 25%
So
14% State held untill OP dies
14% OP would be 19% without CH fees
27% Children. 36% without CH fees
22% BIL
22% SIL

Best of the worst case options she owns 1/3 of PIL home and her child and family own the other 2/3.

Even if its "blood" family they marry "out". OP becomes MIL risking passing over assets and not usomg them to pay for her old age and the cycle starts again.

@Cailin66 I asked our solicitor earlier about 117, had told DH before going in. He had never heard of it. We went in to sign out own wills earlier. Our solicitor said yes, there would be a case for 117, but DH having worked on the farm/ paid rent would stand to him. DH I think was a bit taken back that it could be contested at all. Still re-assured me in the car on route home all was fine.

The accountant is the one PILs have been using for decades for their accounts. They had been going to a solicitor for years but he retired and when the new one took over she advised not to pass down.

We went to a different solicitor. I just booked an appointment with the closest one. I wanted guardianship and access to the little money I do have available for DC

I'm not sure how MIL ended up with all in her name. FIL inherited some of the land, she inherited some and they bought some. She just looks after everything so I guess it is easier for it to be in her name.

But they do joke 'Dad handed over his wallet they day they got married and never got it back' genuinely he does not own a wallet. MIL minds everything to do with that.