Farm inheritance - ILs should give farm to DH now

[farmerswife7]

I'll start by saying I know inheritance is never guaranteed not an entitlement etc and that we are very very lucky with what we do have now and what my DH will inherit.

I will also state I am not from a farming background and my mum rents so inheritance isn't something I have ever considered. I have always stayed out of what is said in DHs family as it didn't seem like my business.

We met with a solicitor recently to get our wills drawn up, mainly in order to have guardianship set out for DC.

We rent our house from ILs at a very reasonable rate. Both ILs are in their late 70s, they live in the main farm house, we live in a smaller older one.

DH works a lot on their farm. Thankfully FIL is still very fit/ active but understandably is slowing down. DH does not get a wage for this, but as I said we have lower rent.

I originally wanted to buy our own house. But this would have an impact on DH's inheritance tax, there is a farm relief scheme, we are in Ireland. So we didn't buy a house. DH also said there is no point as we will eventually inherit the whole farm and will need to live in the main farm house.

Now the solicitor brought it up when we went in and said about it being better for them to sign it over to DH now in case they end up in nursing homes a lot of the land could end up going in fees.

My DH went with my ILs about a year ago to see an accountant who advised that they sign it all over to DH now. They agreed. But then MIL when to a solicitor who advised against it so they didn't.

I'm a little worried about our financial future now. 1st and foremost I do not want ILs to end up in nursing homes. I genuinely do love them and want them around for as long as possible. DH says "they wouldn't go to one ever" but my uncle is currently in one suffering with Alzheimer's I don't think he thought he would go for one.

I mostly just wanted to vent my frustration.

AIBU to want my ILs to give the farm to DH now? They would still live in the main farm house and receive the farm income btw.

@bevm72yellow he said DC are in the will, whatever that means. It is all legal in a will right now but I suppose they could change their minds. DH understandably says that won't happen and that he trusts his parents. TBH I trust his parents too.

@WiddlinDiddlin you know I have no idea what happens to this house if they go to a care home. I know this house is willed to one of his siblings. I think BIL but I'm not sure.

@Cailin66 I'll go googling now but could they really dispute a legally binding will? AFAIK everything is in my MILs name (strange for the time). I know she has herd no anyway. We visited a solicitor together we're on the NI boarder but in ROI. I really don't know if there is any point in seeing a solicitor independently. I own nothing neither does DH

I think at minimum you need some answers to a bunch of 'what happens if' questions here.

What happens if they both go into a care home - to your current home, to the land/buildings used for your husbands business - to his investment, time/effort wise into the farm.

What happens if your husband dies before them?

What happens if either of the siblings makes a claim on the farm in the event of their death? This may be one for the solicitor that drew up the will tbh.

I would not settle for 'that will never happen' as thats not an answer and they all know that.

@farmerswife7

Read this:

That last post should have a link:

https://legalguide.ie/13202-2/#:~:text=Proprietary%20Estoppel,-Proprietary%20estoppel%2C%20arises&text=Where%20an%20assurance%20is%20given,equity%20arises%20in%20his%20favour.

1. We met with a solicitor recently to get our wills drawn up, mainly in order to have guardianship set out for DC.

So your husband has been careful to make sure the children are taken care of. Presumably it was suggested to you the guardian be his sibling and spouse. Does he know the content of your will? Do you know the content of his? And if you do, who has he left his assets to? Was it the same solicitor for both of you? If yes, did you get an opportunity - alone - to discuss your will.

2 I originally wanted to buy our own house. But this would have an impact on DH's inheritance tax, there is a farm relief scheme, we are in Ireland.

Well that was pretty sensible of you. But doesn't suit you farm family does it. It would have given you an asset, instead your money goes to paying rent to your husband's parents, and that money will be used by them to give him/his children/his siblings an inheritance.

The inheritance tax angle is a novel one. And I just love it's tied into the farm relieve scheme. How would you owning a house with your husband affect his inheritance tax. You'd have to die and if you did, leaving everything to you husband, there is zero inheritance tax due in Ireland. If you left you share to the children they have a limit of 300K+ each before tax is due.

3 So we didn't buy a house. DH also said there is no point as we will eventually inherit the whole farm and will need to live in the main farm house.

Your DH says a lot. Your parents might live another 20 years. You might be divorced. Your husband may not inherit. Farm/Assets might be divided between all siblings. The MIL might inherit and leave everything to the cat and dog home. The assets might go to paying for end of life care.

That's another one of those novel ideas. There is no requirement to live in a particular house.

Meanwhile you're living in what seems to be the old farmhouse. The ones Irish families couldn't wait to get out of and built a bigger, better house next door to. Look around you at other farms and you will noticed this. Generally a granny/unmarried uncle might live in the old home, or more generally it became used as a cattle shed.

4 Now the solicitor brought it up when we went in and said about it being better for them to sign it over to DH now in case they end up in nursing homes a lot of the land could end up going in fees.

This is good advice. I no longer live in Ireland but I do know everybody is trying to avoid paying out under what is called the 'fair deal scheme' for nursing home care. So they are divesting themselves of their assets.

It is even more important for those with land. With the farm scheme to encourage older farmers to hand over their land to their sons (sometimes daughters). It's a very efficient tax scheme to avoid inheritance tax etc. And it is why your DH is 'working' as a farmer 'for free' - in order to quality. He's not working for free, he's working as it's what has been arranged between the family. And it's the same in most farm families.

5 My DH went with my ILs about a year ago to see an accountant who advised that they sign it all over to DH now. They agreed. But then MIL when to a solicitor who advised against it so they didn't.

This is your DH's feeling a bit stressed about what is actually going to happen. So he was trying to push his parents into signing. Because I presume they were dragging their heels, late '70's is late for this. And now he's discovered his mother is not happy about it at all. With valid reason, like ending up owning nothing, being widowed and her son kicking her out of her home. Because once all assets are gone, there's no going back from that. And she has probably seen cases of elderly parents, particularly women, ending up forced into a nursing home and the promises of minding nanny for life a mere distant memory.

@Cailin66 thank you so much (truly) a lot to think about there.

1 - Two guardians one on each side. We have mirror will with everything going to each other and if something happened to us both to DC.

2 - Me owning a house wouldn't impact, but us jointly owning one would. I am strongly considering buying an investment property. I just don't want to be a 'greedy' hated landlord! But if I could have enough to cover the mortgage/ income tax/ insurance/ upkeep etc I'd be happy to have no income from it now but ticking away there as an investment.

3 - No thankfully it's not that bad, I know the sort of house you're talking about. I suppose he means to live on the main farm. Security for the farm just having someone there. Then cattle calving

4 - Yes the solicitor said it was about the fair deal and avoiding it. He did mention maybe signing over parts of the farm land

5 - I really don't think DH is trying to push them and MIL isn't one to be pushed around. She is the real matriarch/ head of the family no doubt. She's a wonderful woman and was so good to me when pregnant and unable to drive to appointments due to health. But I can actually really see that now and I am sorry to say I hadn't considered their fears that DH/ we could sell all out from under them. I do know 1 family that has happened with (son got farm, then tried to sell the whole lot to move off with OW, leaving his wife children and parents!).

We will have to try to talk to them. Or at least DH. The farm isn't all in one block so there would be a few folios so it could be possible to transfer some now.

And you're right he isn't working for free. He is working for payment down the line. I suppose I was just worried by the solicitor that it might not materialise and he/ we will have lost the opportunity to build something for ourselves. He is doing a lot of work on expanding/ improving the farm.

Having gone through farm inheritance in Ireland, and dealt with several of my friends and their parents reluctance to hand over farms while they are still alive I can strongly suggest use an independent farm inheritance expert. The one we used was wonderful. He really helped my parents through the process - so they understood it was a win to screw the tax man! It's great he already has the green cert and is a 'qualified farmer', that's half the battle. You need to put a clause in that his parents will always be provided a house to live in, and yes the assets should be distributed before any need arises under the green deal - BUT there is also the option of going into farm partnership with his father, rather than inheriting outright which could also help. Can pm you the details of who I used if needed - you still pay 2% fees to government but can reclaim a lot of the general costs associated as he has his qualification

You are in a very precarious position OP, but I think you know that. If you were to separate or divorce or be widowed you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. None of us enter marriage thinking it will fail but believe me it can. The bullshit about making sure you would be looked after isn't worth the paper it's written on. Also there may be a will now but that can be changed any time.

I was in similar position, MIL wouldn't transfer the land to exDH because the solicitor told her that I could end up "putting them on the road". My circumstances are different in that he now has it all in his name 2 years, we are separated (not yet legally) but we also have a house in our name.

I have seen carnage erupt in my father's family over the last 5 years. Nothing was ever properly put into anyone's names and they went from a happy, united family into strangers shredding each other and not speaking. Resentments and bitterness came up and it became more about principal than money. It's so awful to see what has happened. It could have been all avoided by spending an hour in a solicitors office. Your DHs siblings might have no interest in farming but they might just have an interest in money. You are too grateful for renting a house slightly below market rate. They have an unpaid slave on hand 24/7. If they were paying farm relief for the hours your DH puts in they would get a massive shock. And none of us want to see people we love moving into nursing home but sometimes it is the absolute best thing for the person to get top class care and help that they can't get at home.

Get things in order for yourself and your kids if you can. Look into buying a house if you are able to do so. Speak to a very good solicitor. You could have the rug pulled from under you in the morning.

Absolutely agree with others that seeking advice from a specialist solicitor purely for your own interests is the way to go. I'd also want to ask the question about what happens in the current circumstance if one or both your ILs became incapacitated eg a stroke, does your DH have a Power of Attorney to make decisions on behalf of the business? Could he keep it running it indefinitely without owning it?

A few posters have mentioned reassuring MIL by giving her a right to remain in her home even if the farm is signed over. Making provison for her is the right thing to do, but I'd suggest thinking carefully about what exactly is promised. In my family the "home place" was inherited equally by three siblings. One of the siblings had still lived at home with his elderly parent before they died and the will made provision for him to "have his day in it" before it could be split. On the face of it, this sounds fair but this sibling is vulnerable and actually isn't capable of looking after or maintaining a large property and garden on their own. It puts a huge responsibility on the other two siblings to enable them to live there. All three siblings are now older and it is clearly going to become unsustainable at some point. It is very obvious that what would probably have been in his best interests would have been for him to have moved to somewhere smaller and more manageable when he was younger. But the nature of the inheritance arrangement effectively made that decision impossible. The people who would have taken that decision (his siblings) were the same ones who were prevented from doing so by the will.

Just a note of caution, to remember it might not just be caring for MIL if there is a condition to the signing over that she retains her house. In the future it could also be the cleaning, gardening and maintenance of the larger farmhouse on top of your own.

Bloody hell. This is the grabbiest thing I've ever read on here

Tell me you haven't read the thread without...

If you understood the tiniest scrap of what the OP is explaining, you'd grasp this is not grabby, not by a long chalk.

Honestly you are the one likely to lose out. Stop giving DH any of your money, buy a small place but see a solicitor first and make sure it won’t be divided up in a divorce. You don’t know what the future holds, if everything goes wrong you have the small house you bought to fall back on. If everyone eventually goes to plan you will have a place for you and DH to move to when you retire, and something to leave the dc that doesn’t get the farm.

Don’t tell anyone what you are planning to do, you will just get talked out of it. Set yourself up financially now, imagine splitting up in 20 years time and having nothing.

One problem is that last year MIL as owner has decided not to sign over anything.

You and DH (U) need to have a long chat about how U are going to manage PIL long term without either going into a carehome.
U both work
Imagine what happens when one or both PIL needs 24/7 care.
Is their home fuctional? Is there a room to use as a downstairs bedroom and is there a functional wheelchair accessale bathroom etc.
Who (DH/you) is going to provide care?
Would MIL/FIL want DH/you providing intimate care?
Which of U is making the most income?
Who's income is stable through out the year?
Can U manage on one income if PIL keep all their current income?

You need independent legal advice because
(i) you (not DH) are loosing the oppertunity to buy a house while paying
(a) rental to PIL plus
(b) the wage cost saved by PIL from DH's work (PiL are getting an employee for €200 pm /€2400 pa. If DH was working same hours for neighbour what would his farming wage be?)
(ii) your planning is depending on DH out-living PIL and being willed PIL's current assets.
(iii) your planning is based on current legislation and tax breaks, PIL could live for another 20-30 years, rules could change so you will need ongoing advice and advance warning on proposed changes.
(iv) legal advice would include what you would look for when the farm is willed to DH and not in your name. You will still be living in a house you don't own, which you have limited claim to, and which could be lost if DH over borrowed against the farm or contracting business.

The PIL have:

PiL house
"Your" house (willed to BIL/SIL)
Farm land
Contractor Storage Yard
A site for a new house
Faming business assets (eqipment / animals)
Farm income
Rental income from your home
Rental income potential from contractor storage Yard
1 State Pension income for FIL( ?if no assets)
1 State Pension income for MIL ( ?)

MlL is key player/ owner of everything.
FIL "paid employee" with claim against their (marital) house and 1 acre (or less) of garden.
DH "unpaid employee" & gift giver.
You a Renter with no rental agreement or proof of payment for bank.

The likely reason the assets are in MILs name is that she got the land through her family
Or FIL signed everything over to her (unlikely).

PIL house planning
He said the house was built in his name
I am guessing that your DHs name was used on the planning application?
If so, he is unlikely to be granted a "2nd" application in any county area which has high demand so any application based on local needs would likely rest on you qualifying for planning.
You need to ask him what happened and if the land was signed over to him.

As for you buying a rental.
it is a gamble if you are learning about a new business at a time when Government policy is stacked against non-professional investors. Best case you would get rental income and capital gains. Interest rates are set to rise but household income is not going to match.
if you are going to have a situation where your income (rent) is only going to cover the costs and your tax liability you need an external buffer ( existing savings or be able to divert "excess" wages). Even with the best luck in the world something will need fixing, replaced etc. If you get a non-payer you need to fund the eviction costs as well as the usual costs. Your buy-in / resale value would need to account for a drop in market value from having a sitting tenant.
It could be a great investmwnt but unless you can get spare cash trying aim for a property which builds cashflow too.

Risk 1) DH dies and you fall out with PIL:
Can you cover all living costs without his income? Can you qualify for a home loan based only on your income and do you have a deposit? You live in a rental and have no formal lease nor do you have a trackable monthly rental payment going through the bank?
Solution1 > Your DH needs a life assurance cover.

Risk 2) DH dies and you DO NOT fall put with PIL:
Your PIL can't manage the farm and BIL /SIL replace DH with s/he getting the farm.
You and your children may be left the assets which were to go to "relpacement".

Risk 3) While alive MIL and FIL go to care home and State is owed for care:
Who owns what will be key here.
You and DH (U) need to work out what the maximum amount due to the State for MIL and also FIL.
Once U know the number work out if U can generate the income to cover the 2 bills from the farm. If not how much land would have to be sold to cover the bills. (Also see below)

3a) What provision has been made to allow the farming business to continue if one or both PIL become legaly incapacitated and can't make legal decisions?

Risk 4) MIL dies, her will leaves all assets to FIL:
This is "Kicking the can down the road" and hopefully FIL's will gives DH farm.
Note that FIL's care home fees would now be based on full farm assets (less cost due to State for MIL's carehime fees)

Risk 5) MIL dies, her will transferrs house to FIL for his lifetime and all family members get an equal split of all.

I know this house is willed to one of his siblings. I think BIL but I'm not sure.
Is this 1 reason why PIL did not want U to have any financial claim against your house?
Question; if BIL is getting your house, DH the rest of the farm; why is SIL being excluded?? Or is there additional assets for her?

When MIL dies U family has no house. Your BIL becomes a Landlord (LL) of a sub-par rental and U have no written rental agreement. Is BIL local to house? Is he willing to be a LL or would he need/want the cash?

If U had to move tomorrow how much of the contents were bought by you and how much belong to PIL?
NB You and MIL should do a list

If U move in to FIL's house (his ownership) tomorrow how would bedrooms and common spaces work? How would paying the bills work? How about if you wanted your family to visit for an day visit or overnight?
What if FIL invites BIL/SIL to stay over? Merging two families can be hard. I would guess from the way PIL acted over your current house that PIL house will first and always be their family home, and you and your children will be "guest" family the same as BIL/SIL.

If the will.is not as agreed DH could bring a case to Court, and the Irish court system has a number of sucessful cases where the promise of future payment (the farm in the will) in exchange for work were upheld. But that is not a cheap option and would result in DH loosing his side of the family.

PiL and DH went to meeting about farm, why as the (other?) person expected to provide in home care for PIL were you not invited?
MIL decided not to sign over farm last year, Why did DH not discussed this with you before this year?
What efforts have been made in the last year to find a resolution to MIL's concerns?
It is possible to split the property into independant folio and see if MIL woild be open to suggestions

DH is running his business using the farm land/buildings as a Yard and not paying rental. He needs to check with his accountant if this is a cash equivelent benefit that could be taxed.
What is the commercial cost if DH was to enter into a rental agreement for Yard with PIL?

You said that DH has no assets?
Is he running other peoples machines or does he own his own equipment?
Is this business seen as farming for the tax calculation?

He is spending money earned from contracting on improvements for the farm.
So he is giving PIL cash gift.
How is this tracked in the farm business?
How much is needed and what extra value do PIL gain from the investment?

Why is DH not willing to get the site and build a home for Ur family?
He could "buy" the site from his parents as part of his inhetatince. Then transfer the land tax free to you (as wife) and you both apply for a selfbuild loan. He owes 100%, you owe 100%. You are married but living in rented marital home. Design with a granny flat and once built U move in, you cant sell without clearing the loan, will him the house and your loan life assurance covers it if you die. He still has no asset and is still a "farmer". The bank should work with U if DH is getting farm and U are good loan risk.

PiL rent out your house to new renters for full price so no loss of income.
If need be U move to PIL house and rent out/sell the new house.

Just part way through this thread, but me too!!! Perhaps I've got this wrong but your DH has never earned a salary, just got reduced rent on a house on the farm?! That's madness! No wonder the mother two children don't want anything to do with the farm!

Some mad answers on here. Yes mil needs to feel safe but jeez, working for nothing but 20% off and promises is a bit extreme. He should get this legally sorted through an expert. He should be a partner. Also have you not seen the will? You exist and are important too not some extra slave to create kids for the farm and I think your pil are really out of order for making you keep their decoration, lying to get you to marry their son as you say you were lured on the promise of self build and now you have no control over your own kids bathroom. Awful controlling behaviour and they financially take your family money too. They sound quite horrible to their son and you, you are married adults with kids who need security not irresponsible teenagers!

Jenny I don't think you are lucky, I think you are naive, but I will try and help you because it is very clear you have no clue what a predicament you are in. It will be fine if it all works out but you have had to put up with an awful lot with an expectation of elderly care too in order to get a 'potential' inheritance. And you are the woman marrying in.

I'll start by saying I know inheritance is never guaranteed not an entitlement etc and that we are very very lucky with what we do have now and what my DH will inherit.

AIBU to want my ILs to give the farm to DH now? They would still live in the main farm house and receive the farm income btw.

This is what your DH wants, his eye is on the main prize, the farm. And he's willing for you and the children to live in substandard accommodation to get it. He is living on a 'promise'. It's very common in Ireland. But the smart children get the land handed over, and to make it fair there are legal guarantees put in for the parents handing it over. The MIL's solicitor would have outlined those options for safeguarding to her. Not that I'd trust second hand information from her either. Especially now you've mentioned she is actually the owner. She might favour a different sibling, her eldest son say, for the entire inheritance. People have come to worse than blows over this sort of thing. Jenny do you not read the papers, did you not read the appalling double murder case that was in the last 5 years?

We have to have less than 20% of assets and 'non farm assets' on inheritance so owning a house and depending on how much was paid off could have skewed that. Once you pass that and a few other things, such as have worked a certain time on the farm/ intend to work for 7 years on the farm. There will be in inheritance tax.

I haven't looked at the rules on the Farm Relief Inheritance Scheme. Are you sure this is true. And even if it is true, you and your husband could have been gifted a site and built a fine house with a mortgage. And kept under the 20% of the one million farm value. The other conditions your DH seems to have sorted.

@Cailin66 I'll go googling now but could they really dispute a legally binding will? AFAIK everything is in my MILs name (strange for the time). I know she has herd no anyway. We visited a solicitor together we're on the NI boarder but in ROI. I really don't know if there is any point in seeing a solicitor independently. I own nothing neither does DH

There is not a person in Ireland, particularly those on farms that doesn't know what S117 is.

So you want to challenge a Will in 2022 ? Section 117 is the relevant law answered. - Michael Monahan Solicitor

Your SIL looks like the one most likely to do this, I know I would if I were her. She seems to have been given the least. And she'd just get a solicitor and challenge it, that would be enough, in general, for her to get a 'pay off'. But she cannot challenge anything if the land/assets are transferred before death. Your DH and PIL will know about this.

It seems your MIL is the title holder. So PIL married into the farm. (Herd number for mumsnet readers is a the person who owns the cattle.). You mentioned various folios (title documents) so the land is owned in different lots. Maybe the MIL inherited all those folios or some were bought after marriage. MIL might be an only child, or might have looked after her farming parents with the condition she gets the land (my BIL's mother was in that situation)

YES there is absolutely a need for you alone to get independent legal advice. But you need to get all the known facts written down so you can get proper advice. And I think your DH is so caught up in 'the promise' that he too needs to see a solicitor. By being 'too smart' he might end up with nothing, part of the being too smart was not allowing you to build up marital assets.

Everyone feeling disgusted that the DH has worked for free. I simply can't understand how OP is stay at home mum. Dh slaves on the farm for free and in a few spare hours sub contract but they can afford to buy a small house somewhere.

What am I missing?

In his name could mean anything. But you can be certain it was done to avoid something. So it could be his name for planning, but not for title. Or it could be to avoid stamp duty, or for a 1st time buyers grant. But these people are too smart to have handed over anything to your husband yet. They are holding him on the promise. And you can see how their promises are lies.

I assume your home question is about the 2 siblings and their families. That they drop in as though it is still their home. Do they by any chance live nearby and were they given a plot each to build a fine house. How does the living accommodation you endure compare to them and your PIL?