Farm inheritance - ILs should give farm to DH now

[farmerswife7]

I'll start by saying I know inheritance is never guaranteed not an entitlement etc and that we are very very lucky with what we do have now and what my DH will inherit.

I will also state I am not from a farming background and my mum rents so inheritance isn't something I have ever considered. I have always stayed out of what is said in DHs family as it didn't seem like my business.

We met with a solicitor recently to get our wills drawn up, mainly in order to have guardianship set out for DC.

We rent our house from ILs at a very reasonable rate. Both ILs are in their late 70s, they live in the main farm house, we live in a smaller older one.

DH works a lot on their farm. Thankfully FIL is still very fit/ active but understandably is slowing down. DH does not get a wage for this, but as I said we have lower rent.

I originally wanted to buy our own house. But this would have an impact on DH's inheritance tax, there is a farm relief scheme, we are in Ireland. So we didn't buy a house. DH also said there is no point as we will eventually inherit the whole farm and will need to live in the main farm house.

Now the solicitor brought it up when we went in and said about it being better for them to sign it over to DH now in case they end up in nursing homes a lot of the land could end up going in fees.

My DH went with my ILs about a year ago to see an accountant who advised that they sign it all over to DH now. They agreed. But then MIL when to a solicitor who advised against it so they didn't.

I'm a little worried about our financial future now. 1st and foremost I do not want ILs to end up in nursing homes. I genuinely do love them and want them around for as long as possible. DH says "they wouldn't go to one ever" but my uncle is currently in one suffering with Alzheimer's I don't think he thought he would go for one.

I mostly just wanted to vent my frustration.

AIBU to want my ILs to give the farm to DH now? They would still live in the main farm house and receive the farm income btw.

Taylorswiftly23 -

Can you explain (apart from growing a penis) please. I thought once probate and all was settled - that was it. Apparently not? Thanks

Don't let the fact that you were ill years back make you think you are worth less as a wife and full family member. People get sick. Your MIL herself was sick. I'm sure she wouldn't have been happy being in your situation if the roles were reversed.

How are the bills shared out between you and your husband currently? Or are you paying more of he day to day stuff because you're on a salary?

I'm no expert on farming/contracting but you should have a good look at the books on the contracting side of things. I'm not sure that's a business that actually makes a lot of money other than acquisition of large bits of very expensive equipment.

I'm guessing you have all the mental load of sorting out bills, children's stuff etc

This is the post you need to take most heed of I think.

I start this by saying I don't know all the ins and outs or whether laws are different in Ireland to England. There is a family farm in my family (grandparents rather than parents) the farm and land is in a trust that was set up a couple of generations ago I think. Everything in the trust is 'safe' from inheritance tax and can't be used as part of an nursing home care either. This light work for you. It doesn't mean they don't have anything as such as they would still have complete control but you would be protected in the future.

@ILuvJam I am probably more of an idiot now. I pay for pretty much all expenses that come out of the bank. Electricity/ insurance/ food/ kids stuff. DH pays the rent. Which I know he hardly ever pays on time, and sometimes they will do a trade, eg he will do something for them and he won't pay the rent that month. He will give me money as and when I ask him though. He just puts it all back into yes his very expensive machines

Oh dear 😥
Do you have any savings squirrelled away? It kind of sounds like you're subsidising his very expensive hobby and your in laws farm.

You need to be aiming to get a deposit together asap. TBH he should be selling one of this monster tractors to provide it if it isn't liquid.

They had been going to a solicitor for years but he retired and when the new one took over she advised not to pass down.

We went to a different solicitor.

This is why you and DH need different independant solicitors.
Your future financial protection is not the same as DH's and it can be in conflict as PIL's family assets will belong to him not you.

How did you and DH make wills when you had no idea of what he owned?
He has €200k of assets, which are reducing in value with no Yard to store them, and no house. The business is his reputation and contacts. If he dies you (and children) would get his equipment. You dont know his current Contractor business and his clients dont know you.

had told DH before going in. He had never heard of it. We went in to sign out own wills earlier.
I dont belieive that the risk of one of DH going to court was not covered by PIL's accountant and solicitor. He may not know the section but would be a fool not to know the risk.

DH also said they know of two locals ''Where the woman left and took half the farm'' so I guess these are very legit worried for them
So he knows and is ok with MIL going back on her word as in the event of a split you would have a claim his assets.

DH having worked on the farm/
This is evidence in a very expensive Court case. Ask for a benchmark for the costs involved in litigation.

paid rent would stand to him.
This makes an argument against being due the farm.
PiL provided housing as a sub-market rate so DH would have to argue that this was because he could not afford to pay rent at open market and relied on PIL's €200pm to support his lifestyle.
Thats 200pm for the rest of his expected life or ballpark €100K not a farm worth 1m

He could make the same argument for access to the Yard.

Ditto if he is paying PIL any money to run his independent farm business this could be used as proof of no intent to merge the 2 farm businesses.

😀
too true!

@AnSolas we just did mirror wills. He leaves everything to me, I leave everything to him. There was no exhaustive list of what we own/ have. I listed that I have a bank acc and CU account. He said same plus machinery. Or in case of something happening both of us to go down to children.

Maybe/ probably PILs solicitors told them. I wasn't there. DH I don't think would have really listened to it all properly.

All the siblings have to do is raise the S117. Just doing that you OH will be advised to pay them off, rather than risk going to court and fighting it. Which costs thousands with the money coming from the estate. The S117 judgements have awarded money in cases where adult children had taken care financially of their children. So it is very important your OH avoids that by getting the assets transferred now.

As regards your will, you have no assets! You also appointed one Guardian in Ireland and one in UK. That’s complicated. In the event of your OH’s death. I and my husband appointed my sister and husband, for our then minor children, giving guardians freedom to do what they saw fit for our children (we have assets) but it was more about who would take care of them. I wouldn’t see much point of a will for a few thousand in the bank.

As I suspected, he’s paying nothing. And you’re paying for everything. No wonder you got ill.

It also turns out he’s not working fir them for free, he gets paid in rent.

BTW you shouldn’t have to ask him for money.

@Cailin66 all my mums family is Irish, she moved back here many years ago too so all in this state.

I don't really ask him for money, I tell him how much I want and he transfers it. It's just not a set amount per month.

He does pay over rent most months.

I'm going looking at this S117 and on the advice of someone up thread I have been in contact with the person she PM'd to suggest.

Serious question, do you think he is too stupid to not have taken an active part in the planning stage with the accountant/solicitor?
That he would
a) not listen ?
b) would not understand what was explained?
c) would not ask questions about the parts he did not understand?

Because if you actually believe that, you need to ask yourself is he too stupid to sucessfully run a €1M farm business on his own.

I think you think he's kind of bumbling, an affable guy just not really copped on to the finer details.

I think he's cannier than that - why else would he be investing money in expensive machinery for a farm that isn't currently his?

He probably does very much love you, but your needs are secondary to his own.

You know this subconsciously, which is ehy you had a nervous breakdown

I don't think that automatically follows Finless - running a farming contractor business requires agri plant, or you have to hire it when required which is at the same time everyone else requires it and thus, expensive and you miss out on contracts... owning your own means you're ahead of the game.

Investing money (And considerable sums, these things cost tens to hundreds of thousands) in plant is sensible.... having nowhere secure of your own to keep it, less so.

Timing is crucial in farming, you can't tell a farm sorry, I can't mow your silage today my machine fell over, ill ring you next week... thats the job gone to someone else within hours.

If I had a dollar for every time I know of an adult child (usually a son) who gives the best of their working lives working on their parent’s farm for no wage, because “this will be all yours one day son” then end up getting completely or significantly disinherited a few years before their parents die, usually because of a falling out where the adult child wants to modernise techniques and machinery but the parents do not, or other non-farming siblings see $$s and harass their parents to make the will fairsies, I would be a very rich woman.

Sorry, that was a long sentence!

Really? Her husband works for them for free. Bearing that in mind, I'm rather surprised they're charging them rent at all.

Especially as the parents get older, more in need, susceptible to suggestion. The non farming siblings visiting every day to whisper in their ear how unfair the wills are.

@AnSolas he's not stupid, not one bit. He is so amazingly talented at fixing/ making things. He didn't do well at school, and 'book' stuff isn't for him. His mum and dad have said it's sorted so he believes them. When it comes to doing anything ' book' related in our home I do it but ask him to fix or build something and it's done.

I had a good discussion with him last night and felt a little bad. He got upset he said it is really difficult for him too. That he wants me to be happy and that he knew going to a solicitor about all this would bring everything up and he doesn't want anything to rock my health. I used to give out about the house we live in a lot more, but we have improved it significantly recently.

He also said his mum had individual chats and a family chat with them all last year before she went back to hospital. She sort of thought she wouldn't come back out. That everything was sorted. DH said it was an awful conversation and I am sure it was, he got quite teary telling me (I did know discussions had happened but not the full ins/outs). BIL categorically does not want the farm he is happy with getting this house, and does not want the family farm broken up. SIL is getting money and said 'I need someone around in my old age' she is about 13 yrs old than DH and treats him like a 2nd mum. She adores DC and would never do anything to see them harmed. She is also financially well off in her own right.

He has agreed to get life insurance. We looked at getting it before, I was rejected, IDK why, I am guessing due to my visit to a MH hospital. So he didn't go ahead with it. But said he will get it now if I want. Our solicitor also suggested he get it.

TBF his parents are letting him carry on with upgrading the farm and don't try stop him modernising. He has moved them over to doing most things through apps now and not paper.

I have honestly been blown away by the help I have had on here and I will be re-reading everything again. It might be years but if I think of it I will update here again!

He didn't do well at school
This means little when it comes to farming and a lot of trades. There are plenty of sucessful people who just don't fuction well within the school system, but are sucessful by being highly skilled in reading people and their work environment.
A key skill is seeing risk and acting reduce the fallout if the risk cant be avoided.

At a minimum You need to learn about all the business he is involved in so that you understand the financial risks involved.

When it comes to doing anything ' book' related in our home I do it
V
and 'book' stuff isn't for him.
V
He has moved them over to doing most things through apps now and not paper
V
He got the bank to loan him between €300,000 and €400,000 to get assets for his agri contracting business by....
V
He manages his trade by...

Are you noticing anything about the consistancy of what you are saying above

He has agreed to get life insurance. ...
So he didn't go ahead with it. But said he will get it now if I want. Our solicitor also suggested he get it.
If you die he has a home, PIL with money and a MIL/SIL who could help with child care.
(Sorry this sounds harsh) Financially he is ima much better place than you would be.

He has a wife and children, no home to give you and work 2 jobs in a hugh risk of death on the job industry.
You can not afford a home on your income.
PIL ( and DH) fear you would get 50% the farm in the event of a divorce, what did he think they would feel about you getting 100% of your current house or the farm in the event of his death?

I'm not sure how MIL ended up with all in her name. FIL inherited some of the land, she inherited some and they bought some. She just looks after everything so I guess it is easier for it to be in her name.
I am betting it is not all in her name.
You can check the folios https://www.landdirect.ie/

There is no logical reason to pay a solicitor for that work unless FIL was at risk of having his land taken to pay for a debt.

But they do joke 'Dad handed over his wallet they day they got married and never got it back' genuinely he does not own a wallet. MIL minds everything to do with that

Or they worked out a division of labor, MIL is the brains doing bisiness FIL the brawn doing farm work. But she has the final say.

Do you notice DH has settled into the same role for the division of labor in your household?

she went back to hospital. She sort of thought she wouldn't come back out. That everything was sorted.
She made a will for the property in her name.
So MIL is dead.
DH pays the additional taxes.
You have no home.
You have to go live with FIL in his home.
You get to provide care to FIL.
You still have no home.
Cross your fingers that FIL still likes you and DH by the time he dies and not changed his will for the property in his name.
As a bonus you get to provide care for SIL too

It was not
she transferred everything to FIL and FIL was just waiting for the accountant and solicitor to finalise the paperwork to make sure that DH got the business.

That he wants me to be happy ..and he doesn't want anything to rock my health. I used to give out about the house we live in a lot more, but we have improved it significantly recently.
V
carry on with upgrading the farm and don't try stop him modernising.

He paid for sheds for his equipment and other upgrades to PIL's assets
You paid to upgrade BIL's future house

Look my advice is dont focus on DH getting the farm. If DH is going to accept the risk of not getting it, you will be directly blamed for any infighting if he pushes the issue with PIL. At the end of the day you cant control the decisions MIL makes.

Focus on decisions you can control

Put your foot down on getting your own home. Insist on either
a) hire a local planning consultant for a selfbuild, and apply for a bank loan, PIL hand over the site to DH (for cash if needs be) and that he transferrs it into joint ownership asap
b) you both buy a family home off the farm

@AnSolas sorry no I don't get what you are saying here:

""When it comes to doing anything ' book' related in our home I do it
V
and 'book' stuff isn't for him.
V
He has moved them over to doing most things through apps now and not paper
V
He got the bank to loan him between €300,000 and €400,000 to get assets for his agri contracting business by....
V
He manages his trade by...

Are you noticing anything about the consistancy of what you are saying above""

What are the 'V'?

Yes I have noticed that there is a crazy similarity between the division of household duties/ expectations. It is very similar to PILs. Funny SIL, said she would never have married a farmer, now that I look around many women from farming backgrounds have not married farmers!

The rent is actually proof he’s no claim on anything. It’s a pure financial transaction. Particularly since it was a holiday let before.

He ploughs all his money back into building his business and improving the farm.

This is worrying. He needs to take a prroper wage from his contracting business and lodge it to your joint household expenses account. His money is not 'his' to spend on machinery but yours is also 'his' to support his lifestyle and family. Do you really believe he has €100k or €200k worth of machinery? Even if he does, it's not an appreciating asset. It devalues every year.

It's nonsense to pay rent to his brother until you are the age of his parents when you may, or may not, inherit the farm. Most would build on a site on the farm in this situation but it sounds like the parents have screwed him over on that too, if they applied for planning for their house in his name. He sounds like a right eejit not to even find out what his position is. That would drive me nuts.

I don't have anything to do with farming nor am I in Ireland and yet this thread was very useful for me, too, in terms of what to think about for the future, not to avoid the tough questions and questioning everything, as it is essential in order to secure one's own future. I realize, too, that many things that others do and which affect me aren't only their-own-business, either. So thanks everyone who contributed valuable thoughts.

@farmerswife7 I think she referred to her earlier question, that there could be a contradiction between saying he doesn't know some of the wills and trusts his parents that all will be fair, and in fact (as you also explained with your later answers) that he is very good at the business and managing aspect (not just the farming and fixing), too, so that him not knowing some legal problems and accepting unspoken decisions (like about the house not being built) doesn't make fully sense.

Meaning the explanation that he just doesn't like book-ish things and thus avoids unrolling all the threads of your legal situation is maybe not a completely plausible explanation for the avoidance of some answers that you need for (both) your future.

@Filament I have worked out I am roughly spending €350 extra per month on house hold running costs, he pays for other things along side the rent such as oil/ bins. Now some of that is me buying things for the house he probably wouldn't choose to buy. So I am thinking of asking him to transfer me €300 per month. Sort of forcing him to draw a wage. Or would that make me seem IDK looking for 'the house keeping money' well I guess that's what it is!