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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is this ok or is it stealing?

208 replies

Blurred4 · 15/07/2023 12:12

dm in hospital
real health issues currently suffering delerium won’t comply with nurses unless I encourage her as she is scared of them
been going to see her every day
had to organise a new phone and sim as she locked herself out of hers
been bringing her drinks and food she likes with pics calendars etc
mths hospital is 45 mins drive away and that with parking has taken its financial toll (I’m a single parent)
iv found myself today a week away from payday with almost nothing left
iv borrowed some of family but can’t ask more
I know my mum has her bank card with her and I know if she could consent she would I could then keep going for another week until I get paid. I know she will say yes now but I just worry as she lacks cApacity

im just trying to sell stuff
aibu to do this or just wait

OP posts:
oOiluvfriendsOo · 15/07/2023 13:53

Thebirdhouse · 15/07/2023 12:59

If she has agreed already I would mention it to the nurse just to cover yourself then borrow your Mum's card to pay for parking

Why on earth would the OP mention this to the nurse. The nurse is there to take care of patient's physical and mental medical needs. She has absolutely nothing to do with finances and it is none of her business whatsoever. I'd have thought it was riskier for the staff to know there was an ATM card/cash in the OP's parents room at all.

This is a ridiculous statement in part.

No I wouldn't inform the nurse of my intentions, op is only using it in the best interests of her mum.

It's not only about personal and medical care. Staff are obligated to report any suspicions of financial, mental or physical abuse of patients by others.
We have patients come in with 100's, on one occasion 1000's of pounds in their possession. So you think we just don't/shouldn't act on it. That person has that on them for a reason, maybe they don't trust anyone to leave it at home eg.

Your last sentence is nasty.

Voerendaal · 15/07/2023 13:55

Thebirdhouse · 15/07/2023 12:59

If she has agreed already I would mention it to the nurse just to cover yourself then borrow your Mum's card to pay for parking

Why on earth would the OP mention this to the nurse. The nurse is there to take care of patient's physical and mental medical needs. She has absolutely nothing to do with finances and it is none of her business whatsoever. I'd have thought it was riskier for the staff to know there was an ATM card/cash in the OP's parents room at all.

As a nurse I would say don’t tell any nurses or medical staff. Financial abuse of the elderly is a real thing and we are trained to look for it when caring for a patient who does not have capacity. What you are considering is not morally wrong but if you tell anybody it will raise a red flag and your mum will be referred to social services with safeguarding concerns.
Personally I think you should use her card and keep receipts and document everything.

Thebirdhouse · 15/07/2023 13:57

Your last sentence is nasty.

It is factual. You might not like it but stealing occurs in most workplaces and it is a very big issue in hospitals.

Nanna50 · 15/07/2023 13:58

Use the card, it’s not stealing, she offered before she deteriorated and keep the receipts for fuel, food, phone etc.

When my DM got older she added me onto one of her bank accounts so I could manage her money in an emergency. if I had used the card randomly that could be theft / financial abuse, but in a scenario like yours it would have been fine to use it.

Blossomtoes · 15/07/2023 14:00

Thebirdhouse · 15/07/2023 13:57

Your last sentence is nasty.

It is factual. You might not like it but stealing occurs in most workplaces and it is a very big issue in hospitals.

It is factual. Every office door is locked when empty because bags, purses and wallets disappear with monotonous regularity. One of my colleagues even had her lunch stolen from the fridge. Elective patients are warned to leave valuables at home.

User9753224 · 15/07/2023 14:04

Curtains70 · 15/07/2023 12:24

My Mum would expect me to do this. YANBU

My mum would have been the same.

Keykat · 15/07/2023 14:05

Honestly, this is making a mountain out of a molehill.

I was you OP so I know what you mean. Myself and sister had mum's card. She trusted us to use it legitimately for expenses. So we did. Itemised everything and kept a little notebook dated etc. It was for each other just to show what we had used the card for. It was for out of pocket expenses like yours, and clothes, toiletries and so on for Mum. She had had a fall, and needed a lot of stuff for her stay in hospital/rehab. We included parking fees also, they were so expensive if staying for the day but we did alternate.

It was for HER benefit, not ours. That is the key. When mum felt a bit better, the first thing she said was "I hope you and X are using my card to pay for all this stuff. She would have been very cross if we hadn't. I mean what parent would want their child (who is caring enough to visit and all that) to be stuck for funds when they have enough to cover it themselves.

You are an only child OP, you are being so very caring and kind. Use the card, write it down and keep a record. I hope your mum gets better soon.

stayathomer · 15/07/2023 14:06

In Ireland we have a charity called Saint Vincent de Paul and you can ask them for small loans. Is there anything like that in the uk?

oOiluvfriendsOo · 15/07/2023 14:07

Thebirdhouse · 15/07/2023 13:57

Your last sentence is nasty.

It is factual. You might not like it but stealing occurs in most workplaces and it is a very big issue in hospitals.

I'm well aware it happens but i felt that sentence wasn't alluding to 'some staff' but 'all staff' and that is why I said what I said.

I hate being lumped in with the bad ones.

orangeyeahthatsright · 15/07/2023 14:10

I'd love to know if those who voted YABU have actually been in this position themselves.

Zezet · 15/07/2023 14:11

I would use my mum's money in those circumstances (as would any of my siblings) to pay for her costs and I don't think it would ever occur to me - or her, or my siblings - to question that. Jeez.

Best of luck to your mum.

Growlybear83 · 15/07/2023 14:14

I've been in a similar situation with my Mum so I understand how difficult it is travelling a long distance to hospital every day to spend time with a loved one with delirium. You are doing the best possible thing you can for your mum by spending time with her and I am 100% certain that she would want you to take the money you need to be able to keep visiting her. But this can take a terrible toll on your own mental health so pleas make sure that you look after yourself too and make just a few minutes each day to switch off and do something just for yourself.

pimplebum · 15/07/2023 14:19

Can you get power of attorney? To make it legit and. Keep records receipts - do you have siblings or does you mum have siblings you can keep clarity and show records to ?

Pluvia · 15/07/2023 14:22

Her pension and other income is still coming in and not being used. She's not spending her own money on food or fuel — so it's not as if she will lose out at all. All you would be doing is using her bank card to pay for her care. It's going to come to the point where you can't afford to visit, and that will have far more of an impact on her than you using her own money to pay the costs of caring for her. If I were your mum I'd tell you to use the bank card as you saw fit.

The price of hospital parking is scandalous and makes it so much more difficult for people to visit loved-ones regularly.

Growlybear83 · 15/07/2023 14:22

I think it would clearly be helpful if the OP applies for power of attorney once her mum has regained capacity, it takes some time to go through and I don't think it can be done if someone has lost capacity.

Pluvia · 15/07/2023 14:22

pimplebum · 15/07/2023 14:19

Can you get power of attorney? To make it legit and. Keep records receipts - do you have siblings or does you mum have siblings you can keep clarity and show records to ?

The OP's mother would have to have capacity to agree to a POA and the OP says she doesn't have capacity to consent.

Gymnopedie · 15/07/2023 14:23

OP use the card. Don't tell anyone at this stage, but tell your mum if/when she recovers from her delirium. This is between you and her only.

If we are very strictly speaking yes it's stealing in the eyes of the law because she doesn't have capacity. But it's in the eyes of your mum that it matters. IF she were to go ballistic, accuse you of stealing and involve the police you might have some questions to answer. But what are the chances of her doing that? From what you've said, none. She would want you to do it and tell you you did the right thing. Backed up by almost all posters here saying they would do the same, would want their children to do the same if it was them in hospital.

You need to be able to visit her. Do what you need to do to be able to keep doing it.

saraclara · 15/07/2023 14:26

Seriously, @Blurred4 . You are over-thinking this (and some people are making it even harder for you).

Your mum needs you, and you are being a wonderful daughter. But you can't go into debt for this, and it would hurt both of you if you were unable to continue visiting next week as you've run out of money. Seriously, when she's better she'll be horrified to think that you've even thought twice about this.

She needs you there, you need to be there. Just keep a log and receipts where you have them, and transfer the money. You don't need to ask anyone else. They're not in your position.

VerityUnreasonble · 15/07/2023 14:27

There are a few different issues here:

Spending some of your Mum's money is not a problem. You can make a best interests decision that this is what she would have wanted was she able to decide for herself. Small best interests decisions don't need anything formal doing, people make them all the time, like deciding what to give someone for lunch or what clothes to dress them in. We are not talking about spending a lot here. Keep a record just in case. It's not stealing.

Using your Mum's card might be an issue for the bank, they often don't like people not named on accounts using cards. You probably technically shouldn't do this but it's unlikely anyone will question it.

Power of attorney would be sensible for the future but you can't get this until your Mum regains capacity.

Hospital staff, might or might not need to discuss it with safeguarding if they were aware. It wouldn't actually be a safeguarding issue as you wouldn't be taking advantage of your Mum, just doing what she would want you to but they might feel a responsibility to get it checked if they were aware. So you might choose not to mention it.

hellywelly3 · 15/07/2023 14:31

Look at power of attorney. Everyone should have something in place really. Loss of mental capacity can happen very quickly

Original poster
Blurred4 · 15/07/2023 14:32

k think I’ll send her an email for anything related I may need to use the card for like her stuff or petrol and send reciept to her email therefore I’m being transparent

OP posts:
Original poster
Blurred4 · 15/07/2023 14:32

Thank you all for your advice it’s really helpful

OP posts:
Starlightandsandytoes · 15/07/2023 14:32

Keep your receipts and use it for parking, a bit of fuel and anything you need to buy for her. You know that she’d consent under normal circumstances and it’s important for you to see her. Don’t beat yourself up or worry about it you know that she wouldn’t hesitate to say yes and that it’s for reasons that are in her best interests. I hope she’s much better very soon.

Starlightandsandytoes · 15/07/2023 14:34

saraclara · 15/07/2023 14:26

Seriously, @Blurred4 . You are over-thinking this (and some people are making it even harder for you).

Your mum needs you, and you are being a wonderful daughter. But you can't go into debt for this, and it would hurt both of you if you were unable to continue visiting next week as you've run out of money. Seriously, when she's better she'll be horrified to think that you've even thought twice about this.

She needs you there, you need to be there. Just keep a log and receipts where you have them, and transfer the money. You don't need to ask anyone else. They're not in your position.

Absolutely this

Sallyh87 · 15/07/2023 14:36

Hi, not sure it’s the same thing but years ago I was unfortunately in a coma on a ventilator for a few weeks. My then boyfriend (now DH), had to use my card as we split bills and I was responsible for some of them. If he hadnt he would have been in financial difficulty and wouldn’t have been there every day by my side. I completely agree with this approach and was greatful he was there for me.

He knew I would feel that way and you know your mom.

You sound like a lovely person x