Not being "feminine" does not make me any less female

[orangeleavesinautumn]

I have no boobs, short hair, men's clothes, no make up, very little jewellery etc.

But I am 100% female.

So don't ask me my pronouns. You can see I am a woman

Presumably your pronouns are "fuck/off".

I wonder whether this woman is dressed in men's clothes and shoes because she doesn't want to be bound by anachronistic gender stereotypes about how women should appear, or whether she's trying to look like a man? I know, I'll just ask a polite question so that I don't inadvertently cause offence.

🤣 It's not polite at all, it's rude and invasive. You could just avoid pronouns and gendered terms if you really can't tell.

The idea that women who wear mens clothing are aping men is offensive.

It has always been offensive.

It is particularly offensive to gender non conforming gay women given that we spent the 90s and early 2ks being asked if we had short hair and slept with women because we "wanted to be men" hurrhurrhuhrrrhrrhurrrr by sleazy blokes... and no sooner did we manage to get rid of that shit we're effectively being asked if we want someone to pretend we arent women because people think that if you're wearing a hoodie or shoes that fit your damned feet then, once again, is it because you want to be a man.

Same vacuous shite, different decades.

Even if she was trying to look like ‘a man’, it doesn’t mean she thinks she is or wants to be one.

If you stop assigning so much importance to the supposed gender of clothing then it might be a bit easier for you.

Oh, and would you ask her 'are you trying to look like a man?' Because that is essentially what you are asking by asking her pronouns.

Well after all @Verv, men are the default humans, who wouldn’t want to be one? Or at least pretend to be one.

Exactly - you’d be on here moaning if someone used he/him to you.

If someone addressed the OP as a man because she genuinely looked like an actual man (it's pretty clear from her comments that she doesn't), then it would be understandable. If, however, they addressed her as a man because, although they can tell she is a woman, they are assuming that any woman who doesn't dress girly identifies as a man, then they are being extremely unreasonable and stereotyping.

Your friend's acquaintance presumably thought she was a woman because she IS one. If she wants to pretend she isn't then it's on her to let people know, politely.

I'm not OP and am actually big-boobed but wear men's shirts because I like a shirt that actually covers my butt. Men's PJs because I can't stand candy colours and also, they're more comfy. Men's socks because they're better quality and often cheaper. Men's hiking vests and rain gear because pockets.

The reason is surely obvious?
A very small minority of men want to be called her, and a very small minority of women want to be called him. Often these people like to dress in clothing that is associated with the opposite sex. Because there's such a lot of fuss about this sort of thing at the moment people are now assuming that all women who dress in clothes traditionally associated with men might want to be called him. They know full well the OP is a woman, but don't know whether or not she says she's a man, and they'll get into trouble if she does and they call her 'her'.

The main takeaway from this thread is, that asking pronouns to "not cause an offence" isn't a generally polite, nice, kind, or caring strategy.
It ponders to pronouns-people and it hits people who accepts their sex as a given thing, but don't want to be unnecessarily gendered.

It's absurd how many here would consider trousers or lack of make-up a reason to question whether a female person is a woman. Woman isn't defined by stereotypically feminine clothing and presentation.

Woman isn't defined by stereotypically feminine clothing and presentation.

Quite. I spend much of my time in jeans and t-shirt, as do most of the men I work with. (Worked with - currently unemployed.) I have been misgendered, mostly by people who weren't looking. I've had people assume I couldn't be doing the job I did (Unix sys admin) because I was a woman. It was therefore important to me that people did recognise I am a woman, that women can do that job, too. But I still never put pronouns on my email signature. My sex shouldn't actually be relevant, just my technical abilities. Suspect it worked in my favour whenever anyone did misgender me, mind you.

"Well after all @Verv, men are the default humans, who wouldn’t want to be one? Or at least pretend to be one."

Tbf if I saw a man in women's clothing I would wonder whether he preferred to be known as she/her too.

It is interesting though, that some people would welcome the question, some people would be completely ambivalent and others would be furious. I guess you can't please everyone. I'll just add it to the long list of things that people disagree about.

It is interesting though, that some people would welcome the question, some people would be completely ambivalent and others would be furious. I guess you can't please everyone. I'll just add it to the long list of things that people disagree about.

I think it's similarly divisive to asking a woman if she is pregnant in case she may need your seat.

If someone asked me that question it would mark them to me as someone to be a bit wary of. Not rude. Just cautious.

What an interesting thread and I hope to give a perspective from my DC who is ftm. Six years of ideology which nearly broke us. One non binary name and a male one two years ago. My DC uses the male name at university and answers to her birth name and her at home. She would have had your head off prior to last year if you mis gendered her but she is now seeing this for the bollocks it is. Her opinion is that when asking pronouns people are asking about your sexual preferences. We were talking about this yesterday. She isn't attracted to women. She doesn't want to look femine but has very long painted nails and groomed brows (she was blocked by her glitter family for this). She wears female jeans as she is curvy but band T shirts from the men's section. I say nothing as that was new last year. She can't pass as a man.
I think a lot of the ideology is on the way out. For us university has opened her eyes.
I cut my hair of recently as it had gone grey, it's very short.
I'm a red lipstick wearer so it's a bit Annie Lennox. No one asks me but I don't wear a wedding ring anymore due to illness. I get asked my marital status all the time, nosy fuckers. That is why they do it OP.

I wonder whether this woman is dressed in men's clothes and shoes because she doesn't want to be bound by anachronistic gender stereotypes about how women should appear, or whether she's trying to look like a man? I know, I'll just ask a polite question so that I don't inadvertently cause offence.

Or alternatively 'My belief in gender, or my desire to virtue-signal, makes me really keen to ask this woman if she identifies as a man, even though the fact that she's wearing non-girly clothes doesn't justify the question, since it is totally commonplace for women to wear non-girly clothes. The fact that, since I am talking to her, I have absolutely zero reason to use gendered pronouns anyway is beside the point. And I don't care that by adopting a policy of asking non-girly-dressed women for their pronouns will statistically offend or baffle far, far more people than it pleases.'

Sure, if you like to think the worst of people and it fits with your world view, think that.

I agree. It's like immediately asking someone what religion they practice.

I'm an atheist.

Maybe it’s them thinking they’re being polite, rather than asking you ‘are you a bloke or a woman?’ Maybe they genuinely can’t tell?

Can't say this question bothers me. There are plenty of people who look like women but actually aren't. Plenty of people who look like men but aren't. There are even some people with whom you genuinely cannot tell.

Some agencies are required to ask this question. No point in being rude to the individual asking the question - they are simply doing what they are told. Some people are concerned about misgendering others (and in the current climate, I completely understand this). These people are simply trying to be nice. No need to be rude to them either.

When do people need to ask?

Well, they're not being 'polite'. If you really can't tell a person's sex or can but think for whatever reason they might not like conventional sex-congruent pronouns... just don't refer to that person using third person singular pronouns in their presence. Either talk to them or use their name, it's not hard.

Sure, if you like to think the worst of people and it fits with your world view, think that.

I'm not a person who generally does think the worst of people. But I do think that enthusiasm to promote or further a particular cause (even in good faith) can blind people to the fact that certain actions in favour of that cause do more harm than good. And also that some people just aren't interested in weighing up which path will cause offence to the least number of people.