Not being "feminine" does not make me any less female

[orangeleavesinautumn]

I have no boobs, short hair, men's clothes, no make up, very little jewellery etc.

But I am 100% female.

So don't ask me my pronouns. You can see I am a woman

Ok! She’s offended because someone didn’t clock her sex? So what? I understand from reading this thread that being offended about how people see you or treat you because of sex is very tedious and wrong. People are supposed to know your sex and treat you some kind of way—like affirming it—or you get pissed off? Is that right?

No, just use the correct pronouns or honorifics for their sex. They are clocking the sex, as for the majority of adults it is obvious, yet still asking pronouns or using incorrect pronouns or honorifics based on a woman's presentation not matching sex stereotypes.

I am not remotely offended at being "misgendered"

I am offended at being asked my pronouns

As I said, it is akin to being asked " do you think we should torpedo asylum seeker boats, or catch them and lock them up for life - decide which quickly, so I know how to refer to you when you are not here, as "torpedoer", or "jailer".

This question assumes I subscribe to the extreme right wing political ideology that holds that asylum seekers should be kept out of normal society, to the detriment of all refugees.

The pronoun question assumes that I subscribe to the extreme right wing political ideology that holds that you can choose your sex, to the detriment of women and children.

The two question are equally offensive, and equally wildly assumptive.

Accidently "misgendering" me is not remotely upsetting or offensive

very true!

my sex is perfectly clear. I am offended at being asked my "pronouns"

I can’t believe anyone would ask that tbh?!

Why would people care?

It’s irrelevant surely?

This sums it up exactly

I've been a bit mischievous at work.
We had to fill in a form prior to a training day. The online form had one of those little red stars that mean you can't progress to the next page unless the box is completed. It was a pronoun box. I replied to the HR woman (no pronouns herself but a recognisably female name) asking what I should do as I was unwilling to provide a pronoun and couldn't complete the form. Why was I being denied access to training for refusing to disclose such personal, protected information? I went on a bit of a rant explained that it wasn't just pronouns but the whole Mrs/Miss/Ms, sexual preference, marital status bollocks that women are subjected to.
Three weeks of emails between HR and the training provider (Sodexo if anyone's interested) and an apology from them for not meeting my needs led to a very short, we need to escalate this, email to a senior HR manager. The training disappeared from our calendars and was not mentioned again. Apparently they needed pronouns in order for the training to work.

Wtf were they supposed to be training you in, @Icanttellyouanything ? Evidently nothing essential.

No idea!
I think it shows how quickly they back down once people start calling them out on this nonsense though 😀

fantastic!

I am sometimes mistaken for a man. I've been called mate before by people out and about and the parent of a small child recently told said child to let that Mr past, clearly referring to me. I'm quite masculine looking but definitely not a man. I think people are really unsure of where they stand with others now and terrified of causing offence or being accused of misgendering someone.

I always say that im built like a shed!

Weirdly enough I am a carbon copy of my father. Same size hands, same size feet, and same height all through adulthood except I am taller now as he is starting to shrink with age.

I dont think all skeletons are the same. My wrist measurement which is a bony bit of me is 7.5 inches, which is far closer to a mans size than a woman's.

I dont think all skeletons are the same.

Of course they're not. There are variations between individual women's skeletons, and variations between men's. Some genetic, some due to nutrition and use - archaeologists can tell who did what sort of physical work from their bones. But they can also tell the sex from the various significant differences between the two groups - pelvis and skull in particular. Everyone knows that well, except maybe one or two academics who've post-modernised themselves out of touch with objective reality.

I know. I was responding to the "you cant be a size 14 and not overweight element"
If I was the same weight as my similarly tall friend I'd look like a victim of Belsen.

I have spent my life being 'misgendered'. What's great now is that, unlike before when I just had to be a grown up and ignore it or correct them, I can trash the place.

@bonfirebash I'm 5'10'' and a size 14 is perfect for me.
I don't have wide shoulders but I do have huge boobs (J cup). At 12 and a 1970s 10 had a F.
I was really offended when a few months ago mumsnetters told a mother her daughter didn't have a boyfriend as she was a size 12! Apparently their DCs were all an 6/8 at 21. If you're 5ft fine.
I have an absolutely gorgeous son and his GF is a twelve. The previous two, a size 14. He is 6'6", he would be classed as overweight but has body fat of 8%.

They dont feel a woman and at the end of the day, you never know what someone feels.Id rather people asked rather than assume.

What do you mean? Feel like a woman? What does that feel like? I think maybe I felt like a woman giving birth and breastfeeding but most of the time I just feel like a person.

It's so othering though. How can I state my preferred pronouns when I have no preference? Either pronouns are for sex in which case I'm 'she' or they're not in which case on what basis would I have a preference?

My friend's 15 yr old daughter has short hair, androgynous clothing and some interests that more closed minded people might see as traditionally male. She is fully happy and confident being female, there has never been a question in her mind. But at a local youth club the other girls have made a fuss about her using the girls loos as they insist she must be a trans boy. It has been v upsetting for her and her mum. That's how reductive and simplistic our thinking about sex has become. The 'acceptable' ways of being female have now massively narrowed and there is an insistence that if we don't confirm to those standards we must rethink our sex.

@wingsandstrings even if your friends daughter was trans it would not be safe for a ftm to use male loos. Believe me my DC tried. I have knocked that 'rule' on the head.
Most ftm are encouraged to think of their gender as gay male. It's all bonkers. I would be making a complaint. It's bullying.
Lesbians can and do use female loos. They are cubicled for modesty. Unless you have had surgery you're female and you can wear whatever you like.
Bring back Annie Lennox, Chrissy Hyde etc. We are too hung up on putting people in boxes.
For what it's worth my DD was called pretty by a fellow student, he was mortified. She was flattered.

@wingsandstrings
That's horrible bullying behaviour, I hope the youth club are dealing with it? Doesn't that come under discrimination under the equality act if they are discriminating based on (perceived) transgender status?

It is nothing to do with "transgender status" perceived or otherwise, it is simple straightforward sexism.

But they aren't discriminating based on her sex, it's her presentation/interests.