Page 12 | Not being "feminine" does not make me any less female

orangeleavesinautumn · 2023-07-14T06:36:05+00:00

I have no boobs, short hair, men's clothes, no make up, very little jewellery etc. But I am 100% female. So don't ask me my pronouns. You can see I am a woman

Indigotree · 18/07/2023 08:19

EmeraldFox · 18/07/2023 08:16

But they aren't discriminating based on her sex, it's her presentation/interests.

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That is sexism. People should be able to present as they wish, rather than be expected to conform to absurd gender stereotypes.

Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 18/07/2023 08:21

EmeraldFox · 18/07/2023 08:16

But they aren't discriminating based on her sex, it's her presentation/interests.

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It is sexist to attempt to define what is suitable behaviour and clothing for a female

OP posts:

ladyvimes · 18/07/2023 08:33

The whole pronoun thing is ridiculous! I couldn’t give a fuck if I was accidentally called he/him. I’m a teacher and children often get mixed up and call me sir (and mum)! We laugh and move on!

Gender is a social construct and we need to be breaking it down not enforce it! Clothes, hair, makeup do not define sex and anyone should be free to look however they like but all this gender crap just enforced stereotypes. On the plus side lost people I know and most of the kids I teach think it’s a load of crap too, which does give me some hope for the future!!

guiling · 18/07/2023 08:34

I completely understand where you are coming from OP.

Being a woman does not equal wearing makeup and having long hair etc

Being a woman is a biological fact, not behaviour or gender stereotypical clothes

PeedoffPolly · 18/07/2023 16:47

@ladyvimes hoo bloody rah. Clothes are textiles. I don't care what you wear. (I do like smart tho). Otherwise knock yourself out. I do think 11-14 year olds are questioning the gender identities. They are a bit exhausted tbh. My DD is twenties, they were caught in it, the 25-30 are the love island crew. That is restrictive too for women.
We had goths and punks. Nobody got medicated for that. All madness.

Catspyjamas17 · 18/07/2023 16:58

TheYearOfSmallThings · 14/07/2023 08:18

In fairness, if you're wearing men's clothes they are probably just trying not to offend.

I wear men's trousers sometimes as I couldn't get any women's chinos in the right inside leg length or colour (M&S women's ones were all 29" and light coloured, and I wanted navy blue and black. It doesn't make me a bloke, nor should it really confuse anyone, but even if it did, it's ok to be ambiguous.

EmeraldFox · 18/07/2023 20:07

orangeleavesinautumn · 18/07/2023 08:21

It is sexist to attempt to define what is suitable behaviour and clothing for a female

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Oh ok, I get what you are saying.

I still think it's bullying behaviour on other grounds too. If they tried to exclude a female who actually did identify as a transboy or nb from the female loos then they could get into a lot of trouble for transphobic bullying.

Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 18/07/2023 20:11

"trans" doesn't come into these situations at all - why are people bringing "trans" into it? A female who does not want to be "girly" is not "trans"

OP posts:

EmeraldFox · 18/07/2023 20:15

orangeleavesinautumn · 18/07/2023 20:11

"trans" doesn't come into these situations at all - why are people bringing "trans" into it? A female who does not want to be "girly" is not "trans"

A poster posted that other girls were seeking to exclude a 15 year old girl from the female loos as they believed she identified as a transboy. I was responding to that.

Wouldyouguess · 18/07/2023 20:23

orangeleavesinautumn · 18/07/2023 20:11

"trans" doesn't come into these situations at all - why are people bringing "trans" into it? A female who does not want to be "girly" is not "trans"

I think it depends on who your friends are etc. I have a number of trans friend, and a lot of them are very unhappy if people use a wrong pronoun.I also work with young trans people, and some suffer from a lot of anxiety when misgendered. I think a lot of people in my workplace are erring on the side of caution and more likely to ask about pronouns because of that, but clearly it can offend as well. So as I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

lordloveadog · 18/07/2023 20:47

Teachers at school kept asking my son his pronouns. He started answering 'what I take from this question is that you think I am not being male in the right way'.

This gender nonsense is so fucking regressive and homophobic. They were asking because, as he said, they thought he wasn't masculine enough to be accepted as male. They thought they were oh so progressive. But it's old, old school homophobia.

ChateauMargaux · 18/07/2023 20:57

what I take from this question is that you think I am not being male in the right way'.

@lordloveadog .. this man will charge the world!!

Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 18/07/2023 21:02

great answer!

OP posts:

EmpressaurusOfCats · 18/07/2023 21:16

Fantastic answer. What did the teachers say back?

lordloveadog · 18/07/2023 21:22

Actually I don't know! I'll ask him. He also wrote an opinion piece in one class about what a bad idea it was for teachers to make these insinuations to non-traditionally presenting pupils. Don't know how that went down either.

AnotherTownAnotherTrain · 18/07/2023 21:26

Niftyswiftie · 14/07/2023 08:25

Its just easier not to talk to people at all these days. Everyone is offended by something so nobody knows what to say. I'm glad I WFH and barely see people , safer that way.

Exactly. I feel the same way, people are so offended around gender issues. I don't use pronouns if I'm not asked to. If I get it wrong then I apologise and start again. And move on. And guess what? Nobody has died yet! 😁

AnotherTownAnotherTrain · 18/07/2023 21:28

lordloveadog · 18/07/2023 20:47

Teachers at school kept asking my son his pronouns. He started answering 'what I take from this question is that you think I am not being male in the right way'.

This gender nonsense is so fucking regressive and homophobic. They were asking because, as he said, they thought he wasn't masculine enough to be accepted as male. They thought they were oh so progressive. But it's old, old school homophobia.

Good for your son for sticking up for himself. I'm glad when I see kids not falling for drinking the genderwoo KoolAid. Though I also feel sad for them that they have to deal with this utter shite from the adults who are supposed to be educating them.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 18/07/2023 22:21

lordloveadog · 18/07/2023 21:22

Actually I don't know! I'll ask him. He also wrote an opinion piece in one class about what a bad idea it was for teachers to make these insinuations to non-traditionally presenting pupils. Don't know how that went down either.

Your son sounds fabulous.

Yellowdays · 18/07/2023 22:27

I think all this pronoun stuff is self referential and a bit attention seeking. Who cares.

ErrolTheDragon · 18/07/2023 22:58

Teachers at school kept asking my son his pronouns. He started answering 'what I take from this question is that you think I am not being male in the right way'.

That's a brilliant answer, maybe one the OP can borrow with the appropriate change.

ZiriForEver · 18/07/2023 23:00

Wouldyouguess · 18/07/2023 20:23

I think it depends on who your friends are etc. I have a number of trans friend, and a lot of them are very unhappy if people use a wrong pronoun.I also work with young trans people, and some suffer from a lot of anxiety when misgendered. I think a lot of people in my workplace are erring on the side of caution and more likely to ask about pronouns because of that, but clearly it can offend as well. So as I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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The main takeaway from this thread is, that asking pronouns isn't a generally valid nice thing, because it reinforces stereotypes and is unkind to normal gender nonconforming people.

literalviolence · 18/07/2023 23:53

Wouldyouguess · 18/07/2023 20:23

I think it depends on who your friends are etc. I have a number of trans friend, and a lot of them are very unhappy if people use a wrong pronoun.I also work with young trans people, and some suffer from a lot of anxiety when misgendered. I think a lot of people in my workplace are erring on the side of caution and more likely to ask about pronouns because of that, but clearly it can offend as well. So as I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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I'm not actually convinced the people you refer to are upset when people use the 'wrong' pronoun. I think they're upset because it demonstrates that people really can spot their sex and they want people to truly believe they have changed sex. I feel for them but they can't change sex and although some people will go long with it to be kind, people still know what they are. So ultimately it's unkind because the really kind thing to do would be too help them accept themselves as they actually are.

Baldieheid · 19/07/2023 08:40

lordloveadog · 18/07/2023 20:47

Teachers at school kept asking my son his pronouns. He started answering 'what I take from this question is that you think I am not being male in the right way'.

This gender nonsense is so fucking regressive and homophobic. They were asking because, as he said, they thought he wasn't masculine enough to be accepted as male. They thought they were oh so progressive. But it's old, old school homophobia.

OMG this is brilliant.

I'm going to use that from now on (adapted to my sex, of course)

Your son is a bloody genius

PeedoffPolly · 19/07/2023 12:46

@lordloveadog excellent

Verv · 19/07/2023 14:40

lordloveadog · 18/07/2023 20:47

Teachers at school kept asking my son his pronouns. He started answering 'what I take from this question is that you think I am not being male in the right way'.

This gender nonsense is so fucking regressive and homophobic. They were asking because, as he said, they thought he wasn't masculine enough to be accepted as male. They thought they were oh so progressive. But it's old, old school homophobia.

Thats brilliant!
(as is your son by the sounds of it)