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Not being "feminine" does not make me any less female

300 replies

orangeleavesinautumn · 14/07/2023 07:36

I have no boobs, short hair, men's clothes, no make up, very little jewellery etc.

But I am 100% female.

So don't ask me my pronouns. You can see I am a woman

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 15/07/2023 12:17

These people are simply trying to be nice.

It's not 'nice' to disregard the feelings of gender nonconforming women like the OP. It's crass and tactless.

Be polite, be nice, be kind... unless it's just a woman on the receiving end. Hmm

ZiriForEver · 15/07/2023 12:26

RobertaFirmino · 15/07/2023 11:47

Can't say this question bothers me. There are plenty of people who look like women but actually aren't. Plenty of people who look like men but aren't. There are even some people with whom you genuinely cannot tell.

Some agencies are required to ask this question. No point in being rude to the individual asking the question - they are simply doing what they are told. Some people are concerned about misgendering others (and in the current climate, I completely understand this). These people are simply trying to be nice. No need to be rude to them either.

If the people think they are being nice, but are utterly failing, shouldn't they be simply grateful to be told that their approach isn't really nice and doesn't work for majority?

Many women don't look that feminine (but are obviously female), had to find their peace with looks focused society and don't want to be reminded about it.

FourChimneys · 15/07/2023 13:01

This morning I was wearing a tatty sweatshirt, jeans and steel toe capped boots. Not to look like a man but to be sensibly dressed for welding a chainsaw. I have now showered and am wearing leggings and a shirt.
Still absolutely 100 percent a woman.

Pronouns baffle me, my approach is to use the ones which match apparent chromosomes. That system has held good for thousands of years, there is no need for a social trend to change things.

RedVanYellowVan · 15/07/2023 13:07

I would be in favour of dropping the pronoun nonsense and replacing it, where appropriate, with statement of chromosomes:

Sam Jones
Chief Executive
XX chromosomes

I won't hold my breath until it catches on though.

Swansandcustard · 15/07/2023 13:24

ErrolTheDragon · 15/07/2023 12:17

These people are simply trying to be nice.

It's not 'nice' to disregard the feelings of gender nonconforming women like the OP. It's crass and tactless.

Be polite, be nice, be kind... unless it's just a woman on the receiving end. Hmm

But maybe they aren’t SURE she’s a woman? And if they don’t know her name, how else to ask? Whether people like it or not, it is all completely confusing and tbh between not wishing to hurt those who ‘are gender non-conforming’ and not is-gendering those who wish to be other, how the fuck do we navigate it? I’ve met many ‘gender non-conforming women’ and genuinely thought they were male. Not because jeans, or short hair, or any stereotypical reasons, just because they looked and moved like blokes.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 15/07/2023 14:23

So ask her name, & if that & the sound of her voice don’t tell you her sex then just avoid the use of third person pronouns.

ZiriForEver · 15/07/2023 15:04

Swansandcustard · 15/07/2023 13:24

But maybe they aren’t SURE she’s a woman? And if they don’t know her name, how else to ask? Whether people like it or not, it is all completely confusing and tbh between not wishing to hurt those who ‘are gender non-conforming’ and not is-gendering those who wish to be other, how the fuck do we navigate it? I’ve met many ‘gender non-conforming women’ and genuinely thought they were male. Not because jeans, or short hair, or any stereotypical reasons, just because they looked and moved like blokes.

Tough one.
Good first step is to acknowledge, that this clash exist and that asking pronouns isn't a universally nice thing.
How would you go around it 10 years ago? Them? Guessing?

From my point of view it shows that the newly suggested construction of gender based on identity/presentation isn't compatible with the existing one based on sex and lived experience, because it tries to group two groups which doesn't have much in common.

orangeleavesinautumn · 15/07/2023 15:18

Swansandcustard · 15/07/2023 13:24

But maybe they aren’t SURE she’s a woman? And if they don’t know her name, how else to ask? Whether people like it or not, it is all completely confusing and tbh between not wishing to hurt those who ‘are gender non-conforming’ and not is-gendering those who wish to be other, how the fuck do we navigate it? I’ve met many ‘gender non-conforming women’ and genuinely thought they were male. Not because jeans, or short hair, or any stereotypical reasons, just because they looked and moved like blokes.

I can't believe what I have just read!

"moved like blokes" ?????

Do you mean not tottering around in disabling shoes? Not prissing about trying to keep shoes and clothing "nice"? Not hobbling around demurely keeping legs together and skirts down? No handling everything with the middle of your finger instead of the tip to keep fragile nail polish undamaged?

If you genuinely think men and women generally move differently, I seriously suggest you take time out to have a good long look at yourself, your misconceptions, your stereotyping and prejudices, and ask yourself where they come from, and why you have allowed them head space. I sincerely hope you are not exposing enay young people in your orbit to such attitudes.

I don't "move like a bloke" - I move like a free and unencumbered human being.

So shocking to find someone prepared to post a comment like that in the 21st century

If that was repeated in the school where I work, either by and adult or child, it would be a disciplinary matter.

OP posts:
EBearhug · 15/07/2023 16:01

I think overall, men probably do move a bit differently to men, because of different pelvis shapes; as with average heights or foot size or whatever, this tells you nothing about an individual.

I'm not sure how important always is to know someone's sex. I've had colleagues, particularly in Asia, I don't have the linguistic background to know if their name is likely to be male or female. I've never met them in person, they don't have photos on their internal profiles, and timezones mean communication is generally by email, so I've not heard their voices. But what matters is not whether they're male or female but whether they can check a cable in a dstacentre (or whatever.) If I need to refer to them, such as in a ticket update, I either repeat their name or use "they".

Because we have a gendered language, at least in terms of third person singular pronouns, we set a lot of store in being able to identify whether people are male or female, but this also leads to other assumptions about people, and it's not always a good thing. There are some languages which don't use gender like this with pronouns, but there aren't many - and I wouldn't suggest using "it", whuch is why there's all the alternative pronous like ze and stuff, but anyone trying to insist on those just brings a whole other load of assumptions about how they think, which in some ways is a shame - it was a good idea if it had come about without all the ideology.

I bet in languages where it's not gendered like this, they still know who is male and female most of the time, though.

ErrolTheDragon · 15/07/2023 16:04

But maybe they aren’t SURE she’s a woman? And if they don’t know her name, how else to ask?

Ask the persons name if it's apt, not for 'pronouns'. That also gives people who want to be referred to in any unexpected way a chance to say. And apart from that - as I said in a previous post - if you really can't tell find an alternative to using third person singular pronouns, there's always another way when the person is present.

bonfirebash · 15/07/2023 16:09

Verv · 14/07/2023 16:19

Hah, yes I was decent actually!
Big wingspan and flippers :)

Are you me? I just measured and 20 inches here too, 5ft 10
And people are always "well everyone's skeleton is the same, you can't be a size 14 and not overweight..."
I'm built like a power lifter

ErrolTheDragon · 15/07/2023 16:09

I'm not sure how important always is to know someone's sex. I've had colleagues, particularly in Asia, I don't have the linguistic background to know if their name is likely to be male or female. I've never met them in person, they don't have photos on their internal profiles, and timezones mean communication is generally by email, so I've not heard their voices. But what matters is not whether they're male or female but whether they can check a cable in a dstacentre (or whatever.) If I need to refer to them, such as in a ticket update, I either repeat their name or use "they".

Me too. It's simply not a problem, I just don't use 'he' or 'she' until someone who is in a position to know the person better has done so.

bonfirebash · 15/07/2023 16:12

I've swapped to men's socks as well because there's more size choice
Womens socks all seem to be size 4-7, I'm an 8 so buy men's in a size 6-9 which fit great

Remotecontrolatmyside · 15/07/2023 16:28

Oooo whoopee. Another thread about pronouns.

superplumb · 15/07/2023 19:00

When I called up to be booked in for a coil for my heavy periods, they ran through a load of questions incl why I wanted it..heavy periods. Then I was asked if I was born a female. The world has gone fucking mad.

Migrainehaterforlife · 15/07/2023 19:03

delusionsofadequacy · 14/07/2023 07:40

I always get particularly annoyed when I’m the only person asked. Is gives me the same vibes as the idiots at school who thought it was “hilarious” to dare each other to ask me if I was a boy or a girl twenty years ago because I had short hair.

it feels like it’s still not acceptable to exist as female without makeup etc, just in a different way

Feel like the last bit of this sums up the current female experience so well, it's just a new way to have us all conforming isn't it. I am feminine to a degree I suppose but I don't consider my less feminine friends not as female. I confide in them and cherish their sisterhood as I do my feminine friends because they're female. Such a sad reality we are in.

Fairislefandango · 15/07/2023 20:17

Oooo whoopee. Another thread about pronouns.

Oooo whoopee - another poster who doesn't realise they can choose which threads to read.

CecilyP · 15/07/2023 20:18

bonfirebash · 15/07/2023 16:12

I've swapped to men's socks as well because there's more size choice
Womens socks all seem to be size 4-7, I'm an 8 so buy men's in a size 6-9 which fit great

Oh, blimey, you’ll definitely have to state your pronoun now as no one will know cos of those socks!

ZiriForEver · 15/07/2023 20:45

Remotecontrolatmyside · 15/07/2023 16:28

Oooo whoopee. Another thread about pronouns.

This one turned out to be quite interesting.

BathroomOnTheRight · 16/07/2023 12:16

orangeleavesinautumn · 15/07/2023 15:18

I can't believe what I have just read!

"moved like blokes" ?????

Do you mean not tottering around in disabling shoes? Not prissing about trying to keep shoes and clothing "nice"? Not hobbling around demurely keeping legs together and skirts down? No handling everything with the middle of your finger instead of the tip to keep fragile nail polish undamaged?

If you genuinely think men and women generally move differently, I seriously suggest you take time out to have a good long look at yourself, your misconceptions, your stereotyping and prejudices, and ask yourself where they come from, and why you have allowed them head space. I sincerely hope you are not exposing enay young people in your orbit to such attitudes.

I don't "move like a bloke" - I move like a free and unencumbered human being.

So shocking to find someone prepared to post a comment like that in the 21st century

If that was repeated in the school where I work, either by and adult or child, it would be a disciplinary matter.

OP men do move differently than women, they have a different gait than us. It's one of the signs that we use to spot a man.

pikkumyy77 · 16/07/2023 12:27

So OP’s preferred pronouns are female, she wants to be seen and acknowledged as female, she doesn’t want to have to display her genitalia or her chromosomes to be identified by strangers as female, and she is offended to be misgendered? Sounds like offering the pronouns she wants and asserting her right to self ID would solve the problem.

Anyotherdude · 16/07/2023 12:29

@Ourladycheesusedatum That is the best explanation I’ve heard. Now if anyone asks me, I will be able to reply with a cheery “None of my business: pronouns are what YOU choose to use about me when I’m not there!”
This completely sums up my thoughts on this obsession, especially since it’s caused by another annoying trend - that of taking offence by proxy!

ErrolTheDragon · 16/07/2023 13:17

pikkumyy77 · 16/07/2023 12:27

So OP’s preferred pronouns are female, she wants to be seen and acknowledged as female, she doesn’t want to have to display her genitalia or her chromosomes to be identified by strangers as female, and she is offended to be misgendered? Sounds like offering the pronouns she wants and asserting her right to self ID would solve the problem.

If you'd RTFT, you'd see she's not bothered by occasionally being 'misgendered' from a distance.

CecilyP · 16/07/2023 14:14

and she is offended to be misgendered?

No she’s not! Where did you get that from? She just pissed off being asked her pronouns!

literalviolence · 16/07/2023 15:26

ErrolTheDragon · 16/07/2023 13:17

If you'd RTFT, you'd see she's not bothered by occasionally being 'misgendered' from a distance.

Mis sexed not mis gendered.