Page 2 | Not being "feminine" does not make me any less female

orangeleavesinautumn · 2023-07-14T06:36:05+00:00

I have no boobs, short hair, men's clothes, no make up, very little jewellery etc. But I am 100% female. So don't ask me my pronouns. You can see I am a woman

AllOfThemWitches · 14/07/2023 08:27

I would use 'her' about an obvious woman too but outside of mumsnet, people are really keen to be seen as 'inclusive.' They would probably also ask an obvious man wearing makeup too.

Chellybelle · 14/07/2023 08:27

My ex gf was always treated this way and a few friends. I agree with you wholeheartedly but it's the way the world has gone. People are too scared to offend, so they are overcautious and end up offending you more.

Superdupes · 14/07/2023 08:27

People don't even need to use pronouns when they're talking to you so why would they ask - they would use your name or you. It's just bizarre.

EBearhug · 14/07/2023 08:28

The trouble is these days is that no one will know whether you just like short hair and dressing in the clothes you do or that you're totally on board with all the gender stereo-typing, and they're probably trying to be safe and inclusive...

My pronouns are I, me, mine, and I don't really care what pronouns people use about me when I'm not there, if they talk about me at all.

Igmum · 14/07/2023 08:29

Well said OP. Fuck pronouns

EBearhug · 14/07/2023 08:30

Superdupes · 14/07/2023 08:27

People don't even need to use pronouns when they're talking to you so why would they ask - they would use your name or you. It's just bizarre.

"You" is a pronoun. We use pronouns all the time, it's just the third person ones (i.e. what you use to talk about someone who isn't there, usually,) that people are fussed over.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 14/07/2023 08:33

Gender is a stupid sexist concept. The really progressive thing to do would be to work towards getting rid of it.

MrsRachelDanvers · 14/07/2023 08:35

They’re probably trying not to offend you OP. They may think that if you are wearing obvious men’s clothes, short hair etc that you might be non binary. My friend’s daughter is, calls herself they/them and I like her and want to address her the way she wants. Is it that difficult for you to say she/her?

BoohooWoohoo · 14/07/2023 08:36

Yanbu
I remember telling my 2 year old dd that short hair on a woman or long hair on a man doesn't mean that they aren't a woman or man. She quickly understood the explanation, so should grown adults.

Fireyflies · 14/07/2023 08:38

Unfortunately for you, the way you have always chosen to dress and present yourself is now also the way that some women who don't want to be seen as women choose to present themselves. I think you've got two options 1) Accept that presenting in a very gender neutral way is not being interpreted by others as it used to be and tweak how you dress. Or 2) Come up with a sharp response to people asking your pronouns. Your thread title isn't a bad option!

BiologicalKitty · 14/07/2023 08:39

My wife's colleague is a triathlete. She hated having to look after her hair during training, so got it all buzzed off - she looks like Sinead O'Connor, and obviously very cool. Another colleague, trying to be "inclusive" basically bullied her and said that her pronouns MUST be he/him, looking like THAT.

Sparkles and Rainbows innit.

AngelinaFibres · 14/07/2023 08:41

orangeleavesinautumn · 14/07/2023 08:16

why would they? I am a woman

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Yes but the way you have described your 'look' is very much favoured by the they / them brigade. And god help us if we misgender them. The female holders of they / them pronouns are also very clearly women . Presumably people are trying to navigate the minefield and trying hard not to offend you. In trying to call you the right thing ,they are offending you . You could just say I'm she/ her and move on.

Baldieheid · 14/07/2023 08:41

Pronoun shit is just a way for boring, normal people to feel special. It's also a way for sociopaths to control lots of other people simultaneously via speech and the threat of social disapproval. I'm not particularly swayed by the "threat" of tutting from teenagers, and I doubt they really care what I say, it's just a power trip. Pity I'm thrawn, huh.

Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 14/07/2023 08:41

MrsRachelDanvers · 14/07/2023 08:35

They’re probably trying not to offend you OP. They may think that if you are wearing obvious men’s clothes, short hair etc that you might be non binary. My friend’s daughter is, calls herself they/them and I like her and want to address her the way she wants. Is it that difficult for you to say she/her?

it is deeply offensive and ignorant to be asked to

What is being asked is " you do collude with this fascist gender agenda whereby we totally deny that women exist and ignore scientific reality DON'T YOU"

and the answer is no I don't- fuck off

I am a woman because I was born female then grew up.

If there was any GENUINE confusion about whether I am female or not ( which there isn't if anyone has looked at me or listened to me) then they can say "they" - without asking me anything at all - perfectly inoffensive and grammatically correct.

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Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 14/07/2023 08:45

AngelinaFibres · 14/07/2023 08:41

Yes but the way you have described your 'look' is very much favoured by the they / them brigade. And god help us if we misgender them. The female holders of they / them pronouns are also very clearly women . Presumably people are trying to navigate the minefield and trying hard not to offend you. In trying to call you the right thing ,they are offending you . You could just say I'm she/ her and move on.

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no, they have no right to ask

I am clearly a woman, and in the case of genuine uncertainty, "they" is a perfectly reasonable substitute, being the grammatically correct English for when sex is unclear, NOT because it is a pronoun imposed by the third party who is being spoken about

Asking is offensive - because of the wild inaccurate assumptions about my political allegiance. Do NOT assume I buy into all this gender bollox crap - that is what is the assumption being made about me when I am asked my pronouns

It is like looking at me and assuming I am a nazi.

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AllTheOtherCats · 14/07/2023 08:49

"and what item of men's clothing would you say is unsuitable for a female woman to wear without being questioned?

is it that we are not entitled to pockets?

Or are we required to pay more for almost the same thing?

Or should we have our feet squashed in narrow trainers?

Or do we need a plunging neckline?

Or our women entitled to wear cheap clothing with pockets that don't reveal acres of skin without being asked our pronouns?"

This is EXACTLY how I feel. Spot on OP 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

DiscoBeat · 14/07/2023 08:52

I think people are so worried about insulting someone these days. Some people like the pronouns, some people don't, and some people don't even like being asked whether they like them or not. It's a fact that someone somewhere will get insulted anyway and I just use my common sense - if someone is female I'll say She unless I'm corrected.

SayHi · 14/07/2023 08:53

With some people you genuinely can’t tell their sex and I’ve made the mistake of saying male/female pronouns for the opposite sex, which is mortifying for everyone.

If you look a bit like a man then people may want to check what sex you are so they don’t offend you.

Lots if companies are also ‘woke’ so will ask everyone their pronouns.
Its not just you.

I’m not sure why it angers you so much.
If a man had a feminine figure, long hair, wore a dress and make up then people may think they’re a female.

Yes it’s very stereotypical but if you choose to dress or make your appearance a certain way then you may get people who are unsure if you’re male or female.

GordanoBenito · 14/07/2023 08:56

"and what item of men's clothing would you say is unsuitable for a female woman to wear without being questioned?

is it that we are not entitled to pockets?

Or are we required to pay more for almost the same thing?

Or should we have our feet squashed in narrow trainers?

Or do we need a plunging neckline?

Or our women entitled to wear cheap clothing with pockets that don't reveal acres of skin without being asked our pronouns?"

It's perfectly possible and easy to buy jeans, trousers, high or round neck T shirts etc that are cut for a woman's body and that have pockets. I think if you go out of your way to specifically buy men's clothing then you'll cause doubt.

It's annoying and wrong that people feel inclined to ask you what sex you are, so you're right to give them short shrift!

ZiriForEver · 14/07/2023 08:57

AngelinaFibres · 14/07/2023 08:41

Yes but the way you have described your 'look' is very much favoured by the they / them brigade. And god help us if we misgender them. The female holders of they / them pronouns are also very clearly women . Presumably people are trying to navigate the minefield and trying hard not to offend you. In trying to call you the right thing ,they are offending you . You could just say I'm she/ her and move on.

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She can't just say she/her, because it would let the other side believe that the question is generally ok and even welcomed. It isn't. For every "them" there is a woman (or two, or five, or hundred), who doesn't specifically put on feminine symbols, but just is a woman based on her sex and upbringing. It is rude to comment on her appearance by singling her out and asking pronouns.

If the other party is trying hard to not offend, they should be grateful to get the information that their way doesn't really work.

Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 14/07/2023 09:01

SayHi · 14/07/2023 08:53

With some people you genuinely can’t tell their sex and I’ve made the mistake of saying male/female pronouns for the opposite sex, which is mortifying for everyone.

If you look a bit like a man then people may want to check what sex you are so they don’t offend you.

Lots if companies are also ‘woke’ so will ask everyone their pronouns.
Its not just you.

I’m not sure why it angers you so much.
If a man had a feminine figure, long hair, wore a dress and make up then people may think they’re a female.

Yes it’s very stereotypical but if you choose to dress or make your appearance a certain way then you may get people who are unsure if you’re male or female.

please explain what I am "choosing" exactly?

The reason it makes me so angry is the question is assuming I collude with a particular extreme political ideology, which I don't.

It is like saying, o, before we say hello, lets just classify you according to what time of fascist you are, are you one who thinks asylum seeker boats should be torpedoed or just one that thinks asylum seekers should be allowed to land then put in prison for the rest of their lives? I need to know so that when you are not here I can refer to you as "torpedoer" or "jailer". The wild assumption that I am aggressive towards asylum seekers would be as ignorant and offensive as is the wild assumption that I am a supporter of this gender woo, which is demonstrated by "asking my pronouns"

OP posts:

Original poster

orangeleavesinautumn · 14/07/2023 09:02

ZiriForEver · 14/07/2023 08:57

She can't just say she/her, because it would let the other side believe that the question is generally ok and even welcomed. It isn't. For every "them" there is a woman (or two, or five, or hundred), who doesn't specifically put on feminine symbols, but just is a woman based on her sex and upbringing. It is rude to comment on her appearance by singling her out and asking pronouns.

If the other party is trying hard to not offend, they should be grateful to get the information that their way doesn't really work.

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exactly

OP posts:

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/07/2023 09:03

whether I am female or not ( which there isn't if anyone has looked at me or listened to me) then they can say "they" - without asking me anything at all - perfectly inoffensive and grammatically correct

I dont get why its a problem if someone makes a mistake anyway. I've been mistaken for a bloke loads of times. I didnt burst into flames. I get letters addressed to mr all the time. Even the police think.im a man. I dont give it head space. Its unbelievable pathetic and fragile to go into a blind rage because someone calls u the " wrong gender" like mate the world won't stop turning get over yourself

Naunet · 14/07/2023 09:04

Totally agree OP, it’s offensive, male centric bullshit.
Women are not a performance.

yellowsmileyface · 14/07/2023 09:04

The problem is so few women seem to feel comfortable simply being non-feminine women these days. The vast majority of women at my uni identify as trans or non-binary. It's ridiculous. I don't believe for a second that that many women aren't women.

There's a particular group of non-binary women at my uni who get especially offended and disgruntled when referred to as "she". I referred to them as such when I met them because they're obviously female, and rather than asking me to use gender neutral pronouns, I later found out they'd been talking trash about me behind my back because of it! As though I should have known they're non-binary.

I guess they would have preferred me to ask rather than assume female, but I will also use the pronouns that seem correct to me, and if it bothers a person, they can be a big boy or girl and tell me directly what they would prefer.

In short, YANBU!