To wonder why women only want equality and not revenge?

[Kingcatnight]

Admittedly at the end of my tether with men at the moment so possibly BU but honestly right now I'm really struggling to understand what the majority of men appear to have to offer the world that in any way compares to or competes with the (IMO generally superior) social graces, intellectual power, emotional maturity, problem-solving skills, creativity and overall increased pleasantness of women.

I've spent the past week on the road visiting clients, most of whom are white middle class men in their 50's, and having to feign amusement at various childish jokes involving innuendo (not aimed at me, thankfully) and basic, rudimentary word-play. Before anyone suggests it, these clients bring a lot of money into the business I work for so a frosty response or "calling them out on it" would be ill-advised and incredibly damaging to my employer (and me!) but ye gods I'm sick of the self-satisfied look on their smug faces while they wait expectantly for their pathetic jokes to land and for me to respond.

Spent an hour's train ride today sitting in a packed carriage opposite a man who snorted and cleared his sinuses the entire journey, forcing everyone around him to listen to the sound of the snot going down the back of his throat, all whilst reading the absolutely sickening news that the Taliban are further restricting the rights of women in Afghanistan by closing all hair salons. Hair salons which were already only operating after having spray-painted out any pictures showing female faces on their signage. Women in this country are literally no longer allowed a face, let alone access to basic care, education etc.

And at the other far more superficial end of the scale the past few men I've dated, having gone to great lengths to try and vet them carefully beforehand, have turned out to be self-absorbed, selfish lovers who have clearly always relied on the woman's verbal agility and efforts to carry the entire conversation, and who actually have no interest in women beyond having a captive audience for their own accomplishments.

Weekly I hear of various other male relatives, or husbands/partners of friends and colleagues who generally don't pull their weight and give themselves a massive pat on the back for simply being half-competent at their job whilst contributing very little to home life, while their female counterpart is expected to excel as an employee, mother, partner, sister, daughter, friend, neighbour etc.

I say this as someone who has a very generous, caring father, generally decent male siblings etc, so I am aware "not all men", but I genuinely look around me in amazement at the number of smart, warm, dynamic and impressive women in my life who vastly outweigh the equivalent men and on days like today I can't help but think men don't realise how lucky they are that women are still only striving for equality and haven't taken it upon ourselves to overthrow them entirely...

It's not minimising male aggression it's pointing out that aggression comes in different forms, and a few women on this thread have said they have suffered more at the hands of female aggression than male, but you dismiss that.
I think its actually you who is minimising internet abuse and verbal bullying which occurs very often between women and to young girls
'get over it, at least you didn't get punched' oh that's ok then! This kind of bullying often stays with people forever even if it doesn't leave a physical mark.

Also let's not forget that you are more likely to be the victim of violence in this country if you are a man than a woman. Yes men are usually the perpetrators but the vast majority of men aren't violent criminals and also need to worry when walking late at night or out in a pub or club that they might get glassed or punched or started on by a criminal.

You’re right, I didn’t say that, but he will be. I’m not really sure what you’re issue is, you seem very angry about a small part of my overall comment, my experience of life constantly working under men. Even being self-employed, I work in teams in my industry, men are almost always in charge, with women doing the work. It’s very difficult to get ahead. Men are the ‘strategic advisors’ and women are the ones doing the actual work. My overall point is yes, I am also fed up with men.

@Meerkatdog Oh well, I disagree. Bringing up internet abuse by women in a country where the Met police has a huge sexual assault problem- just to take one instance of how fucked up things are- is whataboutery. I didn't say it was ok; I think verbal bullying is far less important than male violence.

The second part of your post doesn't take away from my point. I already said male violence is a problem for men, as well as women. We have seen that in the US, where domestic abusers begin with their wives'GFs and then graduate to massacre of the general public with an assault rifle.

Those of you with these profoundly negative view of men - what do you think of your husbands, fathers and sons?

Irrelevant. As I said earlier, individual nice men does not take away from population level male violence. Lots of nice men about. They can't really help Afghan women, can they?

I genuinely think that a lot of men who are great supportive partners are not as successful as men who act like the male stereotypes being criticised here. If you think about the male billionaires and the male politicians, they are all vile to some extent in their personal lives. Even men who are seen as feminists will have had full support of their partners to pursue their agendas. Look at the Obamas, for instance. And so many examples of men who became very wealthy and dumped their wives. I cannot think of a female billionaire in the news acting the way men do but I would love to know if there are.

'Those of you with these profoundly negative view of men - what do you think of your husbands, fathers and sons?'

My dad is a great guy, not particularly sexist but of his generation so still is a little despite having 2 daughters. Like many men he views his daughters, wife mum differently to most women, and wouldn't judge us in the same way.
But he's unusually sensitive, supportive of women, has never been violent towards anyone, isn't aggressive.

BUT what's that got to do with the fact that MANY men are violent, abusive and misogynistic? Don't makes excuses for then under the guise of 'not all men.'

👍🥳

I've been bullied twice at work. Both women.

This really.

Even the so-called good men like the one I’m married to have issues with this.

My dh (who is a good man in every sense) finds it really upsetting when we discuss female related issues such as workplace equality and as we agree on most things he finds it difficult that this is the one area where I won’t back down because I truly disagree and it’s important to me to express my views about this. Of course he would never say this. He twists what I’m saying, makes it into an argument that he then tries to blame me for and says that I see this sort of thing through an irrational feminist lense. Obviously I call him out on it every time but frankly it’s beginning to grate.

I’d like to reassure him that an equal playing field doesn’t mean that men will lose out, but I actually don’t think that’s the case. In my own (predominately male) industry I come across mediocre men every day, whereas every single woman I meet is genuinely exceptional (because she has had to be to succeed). I think this is what men are scared of. If women are on an equal footing, men will have to up their game significantly or lose their place at the table. Why would they willingly change the status quo when it works so well for them as it is?

Anecdotes are not data.

Whoah! There's a whole lot of generalisations there in your post about men and women's traits.

Firstly, not sure what one man sniffing on a train has got do with equality...

Secondly, you get good and bad eggs in both sexes. My BIL has married the biggest cunt on the planet, she doesn't work, she lives off his money, she orders him around and treats him, his family and her friends like shit. She's toxic. My main issue isn't with her being an absolute narcissistic twat though it's with him tolerating her, he doesn't have to put up with her crap but he does, so he can lie in his bed!

I despise sexism and I'm being discriminated at work and currently doing a formal grievance/legal on it. I've been sexually assaulted and harassed by men throughout my life. I think the biggest issue lies with the older generation of men who came from a different time and unconscious bias that is prevalent in companies. I have hope that the next generation have more respect for women and understanding of the issues we have to face.

Unfortunately, backward countries that have ridiculous ideologies are never going to change. The best thing that could happen would be to eradicate those men!

Oh yeah, I'm sure with women's superior intellect and creativity, we'd all be flying around in miniature spacecraft like the Jetsons, and women would have invented human teleportartion like Star Trek by now, if it wasn't for being held back by the menz......🙄

Utter nonsense.

So women are telling the unvarnished truth about men in general being useless/ pervy/ violent morons. But they are living in a state of false consciousness with regard to their nearest and dearest.

Or : NAMALT and they've got lucky and got the exception.
It all seems a bit unsatisfactory. And anecdotal. I suppose this is a hard area to get reliable statistics?

There are stats to be found. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/violence-against-women Doesn't make for cheery reading. These are only the reported ones, mind you, so just tip of the iceberg.

Is that what Plato meant when he says ' once you admit that a woman is your equal , you have already accepted that she is your superior' ?

• might some other Ancient Greek

Its entirely relevant. I love my husband and 2 sons dearly. They are, without a shadow of doubt, the most important things to me in the world. Many of us on this thread are the same I'm sure. I can see male dominance as the negative force it is, and still love men.

The men I love in my life are, obviously, not Taliban or rapists. Are they guilty of being a little bit more entitled and a little bit lazier than I am? Maybe. I am guilty of scurrying around a little bit because it's easier? Maybe.

There is a huge spectrum of behaviours between slightly entitled laziness and Taliban. And in between that are lots of women doing lots of things to make life easier, and some of those things are detrimental to the cause, and we do them anyway because we love the men in our lives. So it is relevant that we have individual nice men in our lives. Without that we might have had a revolution by now

Its entirely relevant. I love my husband and 2 sons dearly. They are, without a shadow of doubt, the most important things to me in the world. Many of us on this thread are the same I'm sure. I can see male dominance as the negative force it is, and still love men.

I mean, of course you can. I didn't think that was the point of the OP, though. And of course there is a huge spectrum of behaviour.

Eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

Revenge is a ridiculous approach for any marginalised or oppressed group and no way for society to be able to move forward - it is in no.way constructive and a waste of resources.