Child maintenance

[MaxwellCat]

Seem to have had this misfortune of joining a fathers for justice maintenance page (I thought it was for general advice boy was I wrong) and it disgusted me how many men think that fathers shouldn't have to pay for their kids if they don't want to. I was asking for advice on my situation as haven't had a maintenance payment in almost 7 years now, but apparently I should leave him alone as I'm "only hurting myself" and if he won't pay willingly I should accept that and move on and also loads of suicides are down to men having to pay child maintenance?! For having to pay for your own children?! They claimed loads of suicides are down to cm. Aibu to want to pursue this even more now as these comments have really annoyed me why on earth shouldn't I try to get what my kids are owed?

And yet the parent who is still caring for the children should suffer such financial hardships while the other one swans off, and can opt out of paying because it might impact their lifestyle? Absurd.

And nobody should be having more children if they can't pay their fair share of the cost of raising those they have already.

The RP can get a job just the same as a NRP, the fact you say ‘swan off’ implies you assume that all circumstances of relationship breakdown are the responsibility of the person that leaves the home which is absurd. It doesn’t cost £1000’s a month to raise a child, given that healthcare & education are free (well subsidised) for children & the RP is responsible for half the cost of raising their own children I fail to understand why any RP thinks they are entitled to the amounts they believe they are. I have 3 adult children, 2 of them were with my 1st husband, he paid maintenance until they were 18 but we arranged it between ourselves amicably & I took into account his cost of living & his new children & the fact I was responsible for half & he adequately provided for them, even though he was a very high earner I never for one moment felt I was entitled to more than they actually cost to help with my own cost of living.

@Makemyday99 how much did your husband pay for 2 DC? How many decades ago was that. Nursery isn't free, breakfast club isn't free at some schools, after school clubs and holidays camps cost £40 per day....

even though he was a very high earner I never for one moment felt I was entitled to more than they actually cost to help with my own cost of living.

It’s not about what the parent is entitled to - it’s what the children are entitled to.
The children of a high earner should have a high standard of living rather than a basic one.

Thats the point that gets missed so often - tbt money isn’t for the RP. It’s for the children and their lifestyle.

My youngest was 18 in 2019 so he stopped then & paid consistently since 2008. They were with him 50% from age of 13/14 so he reduced the amount which is fair. When they were with him he covered all their expenses, prior to that we worked out that average cost was around £250 per child a month so for both £500, he also gave them pocket money. I covered half & he covered half it was enough for their monthly expenses & it definitely didn’t provide for me in any way & nor should he have.

@Makemyday99 "swan off" refers to either having minimal contact with the child and taking no responsibility for their education, wellbeing and organising their life, or not paying 50% of the cost of raising them, or both.

Yes, it does indeed cost a large amount of money. Current average estimates are that raising a child in the UK costs in excess of £200,000. Per child. That is average: in many areas it will cost far in excess of this.

You shirk your responsibilities and fail as a parent and therefore fail as a human being. That is your choice. Your children will see it very clearly when older. But you are wasting your time trying to convince others of the spurious justifications that you tell yourself to try to make yourself feel better about being an inadequate person who is so selfish that they put their wants above their children's needs and wellbeing,

The NRP has a far easier time holding down a good job because they don't have to do the bulk of childcare. The money is not for you, it's for your children. I'm sorry that you thought so little of yourself.

Had enough now so I shall not be responding further on this thread and am going to flounce into my nice sunny garden instead. 💃🏻💃🏻☀️

All of the men who fail their children and try to duck their responsibilities as fathers financially and otherwise should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, as should their apologists.

My ex also hasn't paid for 8 years. He is finally being taken to court, but apparently this is no guarantee. It's no longer about the money for me, he owes me tens of thousands ££££. It's the principle.

And three of our children are autistic, two have long term care needs, possible life long. He doesn't give a flying fig. His new wife is awful too

Exactly.

Well nice to see this thread has gained no traction, I wonder why 🤣

Looks like most of MN are not interested. Oh well 😁

Ok any excuse you can find!

You said your ex paid maintenance, why did you not do 50/50 care and not take any of his money?

It's a fact. The reason most men are able to hold down Big Jobs is because the woman takes on the majority of the childcare. Why did you take a penny of your ex's money instead of doing 50/50 childcare if you are so against NRPs paying maintenance?

Never a truer word, said by a non paying father.

Just wondering what is vindictive about a parent having to pay for their own child. Is it vindictive to point out a deadbeat parent is a disgrace and seek to obtain the money your children are rightfully and legally due, even when it's a pittance compared to what you are contributing without choice?

The RP can get a job just the same as a NRP

Wow. There's some short sighted stuff going on here.

So, the NRP, who sees the kids EOW, if at all, can work 7am til 7pm, every day if they like. Weekends? No problems. Can apply for any full time role. Come home, unwind.

The RP either has to pay for wraparound care, or can only work Mon - Fri, 9.30 til 2.30. Already limited to roles that only want those hours. The lower paid part time roles. Then they get to pick the kids up and do childcare until bed time. Weekends? Not an option, unless you pay a weekend childminder. Good luck with that. Oh, and the 13weeks a year the DC aren't in school? They have to pay for that as well. Childminder sick? Can't work. Child sick? Can't work.

Yeah, RP can get a job just the same.

Jesus wept.

You can rip it to pieces all you like. I think it’s fantastic advice you gave to fathers who resent paying a tiny portion of what it costs to raise a child. Lots of men study, or just work for cash. And what they lose because of this is far more than the tiny amount they would have paid in child support. If someone is that desperate to ‘win’ I think studying is the way to go. But how much do you think taking 10, maybe 15 years out of working advancing their career, running up student debt and not paying into a pension is actually going to cost them in long run? Having a PHD (and that’s how many years it would take to dodge 15 years of child support) doesn’t mean they will make much coming out of uni. So what you are suggesting is completely ruining any financial stability in their lives. So I have to say I think your advice for men looking to avoid child support is brilliant.

www.thetimes.co.uk/money-mentor/article/starting-family-baby-costs/

I personally think the CMS rate is inappropriate, after paying a small weekly child maintenance sum amicably sorted between my ex and I, and I will say much more, but let’s go to the agreed figure, proper relationship breakdown, NC requested I went legal and disgustingly was only required to pay 1/8th of what I was.

Hi

Let's clarify one or two things here. There are a few problems when we talk about gender. "Men" or "women" are not representing each individual and each situation.

Father 4 justice are an "extremist" group acting for men. If there are some topics that they defend that are good, they are very extreme in their actions.

There are other group for dads that are less extreme and also a few Facebook group chat less extreme.

I know mumsnet is famous for being extreme on the other side as well but I'm fine with it because I know that and I know that most people will misread my comment.

We need to be clear that even on the more balanced groups, you will always have individual that will be extreme and attack you if you ask for advice. They are generally blinded by their own situation and problems.

Let's go back to CMS. For the moment there are very few studies about suicide and CMS. The few are clear that there is a link. Indirectly because the main focus of those studies are about mental health and CMS, but that will lead to suicide.

So there are more and more men raising their voices about CMS (and women as well).

Most of them are not raising voice because they have to provide for their children or because they have to pay £20.

I don't know if you realise what ending your life really means but trust me, unless you have a mental condition, you dont end your life for £20 a month!

In the UK, 75% of suicides are committed by men. The leading cause of death of men under 50 is suicide in the UK. The main reason is financial struggle, men tend to think that if they can't provide for their family, they are failure, so if they lose their jobs that can lead to this.

Divorce and children separation are the other leading cause.

If you have a son, just look at them and imagine that suicide is their leading cause of death of their adult life, so they have a big chance if dying from it.

CMS as been created to enforce the NRP (non resident parent, most likely men even if each year that number decrease a little) to contribute for their children.

The law give that service different way of enforcing sanctions against the NRP if it decide to not pay for anything. It also, give CMS power to increase actions against abuser NRP. The main goal of CMS is to focus on the child and fight children poverty in the UK because we have the sad leading top of western country for children poverty rate. In Europe, only Bulgaria and Romania are above us.

Most NRP, most dads, because the majority of separated dads are not abuser or doesn't try to avoid providing for their children, agreed with this idea.

The only issue is that CMS only works one way and the reality is that it doesn't put the children first.

CMS has it's own regulation regarding co parenting and child maintenance but they rarely apply those.

Their calculations are often inaccurate and if the situation change, even with a court order, they can take years to apply those changes and to calculate the new amount for maintenance.

One of the main problem is what they are calling "equal day-to-day care".

Today more and more parents have an order with day-to-day care, but CMS doesn't apply their own rules.

There are 2 main NRP support group on Facebook. One has a messenger group chat called: "50/50"

Most of people in that group are men but there is a lot of women. Or they are themselves NRP or they are the partner of an NRP.

The last discussion that I have in mind is a dad having is 3 children 50% of the time, agreed with an order, and since years, still paying £1100 a month.

Now the main issue with this is that, those NRP, want to spend time with their children, being involved in their school life, so they want to pay for extra school activities, pay for school meal, pay for school uniforms,...

CMS consider that as gifts, so they don't really care about what the NRP is paying other than Child maintenance.

Also, in that case, £1100 is a wrong figure that have been calculated years ago for an other type of arrangement and hasn't been updated. If the NRP miss a payment, the RP can enforce it and CMS can take the money straight away from their bank account and add 20% on top of the amount.
If payment can be done that way, it is court and bailiff.

When CMS will finally update their calculation, and realise that the NRP has been paying far too much, the money will not be given back. In this case it is lost as for the "day-to-day care" there is no maintenance to pay. Otherwise, they can take the money off their new calculation and the NRP will pay less maintenance until it pays back.

CMS doesn't enforce payment from RP.
CMS doesn't assume their own mistakes.

In that case, the NRP was asking about selling the flat he has a mortgage for to move to a smaller property because he can't afford it anymore, hoping that CMS will finally update his case and he will be able to buy a proper place for him and his kids. He was worried that with the money he would have from his flat, CMS will calculate extra for the maintenance.

I'm myself in a similar situation with a "day-to-day care" order. It has been 2 years that we have that order. I have sent the order and proves of my day to day care. They haven't replied back, they haven't apply their own rules. My answer was supposed to be given by the 2nd of October... I have to wait and I have the sad feeling that I will wait for very long.

CmS is also supposed to contact my ex. They haven't done it in 2 years. Now, if they contact her, if she says that I dont contribute to anything, regarding my proves and bank statements, they will just take her word for it.

You will say that NRP still paying high maintenance in that case, should just stop paying for anything else.

The problem is that, as I said, in my case for example, I'm paying for swimming lessons, music lessons and some after school clubs. Things that I do with my kid after school. Things that we are doing for years. Things that we are sharing together.

I really really struggle to afford this, and that's because I have a child maintenance calculated on 52 nights a year. Btw that amounts of nights was calculated from our previous arrangement.

We had an order for that arrangement, we were about 47 for me, 53 for my ex. So it was wrong already, but my ex, when she opened CMS said that she didnt know exactly how many nights a year I had my kid, so CMS took 52 by default. Even with an order.
My ex went to CMS after I went to court the first time, same, I had proves that I was already paying for at least half of everything. After that she breached that order and I managed to have a 50/50.

So if I stop paying for those activities, my ex will have to pay for those. It means that I will have to rely on her. So when things are civil and both parents are good parents that consider their children as priority, it works fine. But when there is CMS involved generally, it means that things are not civil.

In my case, my ex abused me psychologically. She is a covert narcissist. I can't cut contact with her as our kid need us to talk to each other. CMS just provide her with all she needs to be abusive. I refuse to rely on her so I have to carry on. I have now 3 jobs, I'm not a doctor or a sollicitor so those jobs doesn't pay very well.

If I had my child maintenance calculated as it should be, I would be able to have one main job and have a life. I dont know how long I will sustain this.

My ex has double of my salary, child benefit, her house mainly paid by her parents.

My kid has a great relationship with her father and mother. Obviously she loves us both. I dont think that losing my home, me struggling mentally and physically with all those jobs, is a great thing for her to see. I dont think it will help her development.

Today, studies has proven that a child having two separate parents acting equally in their lives, is improving their mental health and their self confidence.

Today, society is asking Men to be more part of the life of their children. That's why more and more men are going through court to have more time with them. Reminder that children separation is on the top 3 of Male suicide!

I'm not the only one in that situation! So many NRP are fighting their life out of CMS.

There is no way to contact them, they never respect their own delays mostly, some of the NRP are contacting them by email and add their MPs because they dont know what to do and are desperate.

So there are a few things to reform if "Women" and "Men" wnat to put hhe children in the centre of their lives.

1. Male domestic abuse happen more often than we believe. The number is increasing each year and I dont think this is because more women are abusive, it is because more men speaks out. Check the YouTube channel of Lise Leblanc. Check out what her main topic is and what gender is her clients. She opened her channel less than a year ago and she already has more than 500k followers. Mostly men.

1. When parents get separated, 50/50 should be by default. Then parents works around that to arrange child care. If no agreement can be found then, parent can go to court. In case of abuse then things have to be sorted with a judge.

1. CMS has to be calculated this way:

• salary of both parent plus number of nights. If the NRP can prove that it pays for most of things and is involved in the child life then CMS should close the case. It doesn't stop the RP to re open it if the NRP stop paying for things. It will help CMS to focus on the real case of parents trying to avoid paying for maintenance and being abusive.

• When there is sufficient prove that a "day-to-day care" arrangement is in place, Child maintenance should stop. If the NRP doesn't pay and take advantage of the situation, then CMS should be back on the scene.

• there are plenty of way to prove that an NRP is not paying and not contributing to children's life. CMS should focus on those cases.

So to finish with this. Most dads are not against CMS, they are just against hhe way it works now. The way ot works now, is the way it has been working for years. It hasn't reduced children poverty in the UK.

I dont think that a child seeing its NRP falling into misery and taking their own life will improve its life.

So there is an improvement to work on with CMS, a massive one, and if it is not done very soon we will have a genocide of NRP falling into misery. It will not help our children.
I insist that I dont talk about the NRP moaning because it has to pay £100 a month. I'm talking about all those cases where NRP are in an unfair and very low situation when they clearly don't deserve it.
If you look at statistics, it is not a majority of NRP who are not part of the life of their children, and it is the majority who are paying the price for it.

One last thing about the UK children mental health:

• "Mental healthReported mental health problems in England are set to increase by 63% in 2030 if recent trends continue.
• Around 30% of 11–15-year-olds in England reported being bullied one or more times in the previous two months - if current trends continue, bullying in England will continue above the average across the EU15+ to 2030."

There is clearly a problem in the UK, this mean that we are doing things the wrong way and it has been for decades. I dont think enforcing the way we are doing things for our children will help if we are doing it wrong, but hey, we are British so we are good at shooting a bullet in our foot to cure a migraine and shoot the other foot if we see that it doesn't work.

If you want to look at one of the study done recently:

And if you want to check Lise Leblanc's channel:

The issue is that these expenses are ultimately paid for by taxpayers. Of the 5 million individuals who claim Universal Credit, typically the woman is the resident parent of their family and their income is supplemented by the government. In the event of a divorce or separation, both parties experience a 60% reduction in their wealth during the interim period. It is important that both individuals are able to provide housing for themselves and their children equally.

Both the mother and the father express their concern about the unequal distribution of outcomes.