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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Child maintenance

176 replies

MaxwellCat · 03/07/2023 23:48

Seem to have had this misfortune of joining a fathers for justice maintenance page (I thought it was for general advice boy was I wrong) and it disgusted me how many men think that fathers shouldn't have to pay for their kids if they don't want to. I was asking for advice on my situation as haven't had a maintenance payment in almost 7 years now, but apparently I should leave him alone as I'm "only hurting myself" and if he won't pay willingly I should accept that and move on and also loads of suicides are down to men having to pay child maintenance?! For having to pay for your own children?! They claimed loads of suicides are down to cm. Aibu to want to pursue this even more now as these comments have really annoyed me why on earth shouldn't I try to get what my kids are owed?

OP posts:
RoomOfRequirement · 04/07/2023 00:42

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:35

LOL no they don't, oh really this is one of many many suicides down to CMS mal practice.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/04/father-suicide-demands-child-support-agency-inquest

An example is not 'a lot of men'. And maybe this one shouldn't have been such a pathetic father, only seeing his child on holidays, not close to him, and not paying for so long? But no, let's give him sympathy. Right.

Most mothers don't get the option to be this pathetic.

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:43

MaxwellCat · 04/07/2023 00:34

You are obviously from the Facebook group. You brought up suicide on there not me.

Obviously was not on there, I don't use Facebook.

So wrong again, do what toy want with your Ex I don't care but don't go sullying the lives of fathers, who took their lives through the actions of the CMs.

As for others quoting me its the CMs and mistakes they make that cost live, I have an issue with not mothers, so get that straight.

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:45

RoomOfRequirement · 04/07/2023 00:42

An example is not 'a lot of men'. And maybe this one shouldn't have been such a pathetic father, only seeing his child on holidays, not close to him, and not paying for so long? But no, let's give him sympathy. Right.

Most mothers don't get the option to be this pathetic.

Calling a suicide victim pathetic I have heard it all now. I have no time for people like you a waste of my time and oxygen.

catscalledbeanz · 04/07/2023 00:45

maintenance payments had become hit-and-miss. The amount they wanted was based on his income, I think, so that’s why the amount would change I think, but my mum dealt with it more than me,” he said.
Recording a verdict of suicide, coroner Ian Smith said: “Ian had been concerned about a very substantial Child Support Agency debt. He had engaged in a number of texts with his son. He said some rather silly things, including that he would hang himself.

Niceandspicy- an individual example doesn't make statistical truth. What's more , reading between the lines- this mother suffered and never let her son know what the dad failed to pay. The interview is full of I think and my mum did. Meanwhile poverty is statistically proven to be killing or disadvantaging children . An interview vs national statistics is hardly data that advances your argument

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:47

catscalledbeanz · 04/07/2023 00:45

maintenance payments had become hit-and-miss. The amount they wanted was based on his income, I think, so that’s why the amount would change I think, but my mum dealt with it more than me,” he said.
Recording a verdict of suicide, coroner Ian Smith said: “Ian had been concerned about a very substantial Child Support Agency debt. He had engaged in a number of texts with his son. He said some rather silly things, including that he would hang himself.

Niceandspicy- an individual example doesn't make statistical truth. What's more , reading between the lines- this mother suffered and never let her son know what the dad failed to pay. The interview is full of I think and my mum did. Meanwhile poverty is statistically proven to be killing or disadvantaging children . An interview vs national statistics is hardly data that advances your argument

You obviously chose to ignore that I said its one of many many stories, I just picked one at random. So spare me I have no interest in trying to open simple vindictive closed minds.

RoomOfRequirement · 04/07/2023 00:51

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:45

Calling a suicide victim pathetic I have heard it all now. I have no time for people like you a waste of my time and oxygen.

Oh so suicide means you get away with being a shit parent? You're no longer a pathetic father if you guilt your child by telling him you're going to kill yourself instead of paying what's owed?

Some men really will do anything to avoid their child getting what they deserve.

And I really don't care what MRAs opinions of me are. You're all pathetic.

SemperIdem · 04/07/2023 00:53

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:45

Calling a suicide victim pathetic I have heard it all now. I have no time for people like you a waste of my time and oxygen.

Go and start your own thread, rather than derailing this one.

MaxwellCat · 04/07/2023 00:56

I don’t believe you are not part of that group that I’ve now been removed from. I don’t “find suicide funny” I find the suggestion that I shouldn’t ask my ex for maintenance because some men may have committed suicide because they was made to pay. Totally irrelevant to my situation given that cms has never taken any action what so ever about him not paying.

OP posts:
Frogpond · 04/07/2023 00:57

It’s sad that some men resort to suicide. But you still need to claim CM regardless of the risk.

MaxwellCat · 04/07/2023 00:58

And I never once said suicide was funny but neither do I believe loads of men are killing themselves because they have to pay maintenance 🤦🏻‍♀️ my laughing face was at you calling me spiteful! How pathetic the lengths people will go to to not pay.

OP posts:
Nepmarthiturn · 04/07/2023 01:05

If men are killing themselves because they are required to pay a tiny fraction of the cost of raising their child and have refused to do so and therefore run up a debt that they have no intention of paying then it's not really a huge loss to the world that those people have chosen to depart it.

Frogpond · 04/07/2023 01:07

Nepmarthiturn · 04/07/2023 01:05

If men are killing themselves because they are required to pay a tiny fraction of the cost of raising their child and have refused to do so and therefore run up a debt that they have no intention of paying then it's not really a huge loss to the world that those people have chosen to depart it.

I think this sums it up perfectly.

Lala161 · 04/07/2023 13:01

CMS get it wrong a lot of the time, even when provided with correct information, leading to people having to pay far more than they can physically afford. They only take the word of the mother regarding access and nights. She can gain more money by being dishonest, even when you provide solid evidence, and will only change things if you have a court order/mediation etc, which again, another big cost. It’s a very unfair system to men.

FloweryName · 04/07/2023 13:07

MaxwellCat · 04/07/2023 00:34

You are obviously from the Facebook group. You brought up suicide on there not me.

You need to stop saying that someone else brought up suicide.

YOU brought it up in your original post and rightly or wrongly, it has hit a nerve for someone, which is fair enough. You might not agree with that poster, but stop insisting that they brought up suicide when we can all see it right there in your opening post.

Gytgyt · 04/07/2023 13:11

Lala161 · 04/07/2023 13:01

CMS get it wrong a lot of the time, even when provided with correct information, leading to people having to pay far more than they can physically afford. They only take the word of the mother regarding access and nights. She can gain more money by being dishonest, even when you provide solid evidence, and will only change things if you have a court order/mediation etc, which again, another big cost. It’s a very unfair system to men.

CMS do yearly reviews of the person who is paying earnings and this is done by HMRC. If there is a mistake you could contact then and it would be corrected. There is a much bigger issue at hand than your making out here. How many nights are we talking? Because in most cases if you go 50/50 nobody has to pay anybody. Perhaps this needs to be addressed? Why are more dad's not doing 50/50??

I could work longer days at work if DC dad would agree but he does NOT want things this way. He's more than happy for me to do the bulk of childcare because I'm saving him.... £270 a month doesn't even cut it. Its a bloody insult to suggest otherwise.

SchoolQuestionnaire · 04/07/2023 13:21

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 00:35

LOL no they don't, oh really this is one of many many suicides down to CMS mal practice.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/04/father-suicide-demands-child-support-agency-inquest

One of many but apparently you can only produce one single example from 8 years ago as evidence.

To be honest, I feel far more sorry for the son who now has to live with the fact that his father would rather take his own life than even consider paying for him. And actually told him so. This is very sad but it doesn’t change the fact that he was a cruel man.

aSofaNearYou · 04/07/2023 13:29

I think there is a lack of empathy on here which is not helpful. Yes people should pay for their children, and yes lots of men who could comfortably pay do hide their income to get out of it, which is shit. But I don't think it's as cut and dry as people on here make out. Until you've been on the other side struggling to pay, you don't really get it.

A common scenario - mum and dad split, mum keeps the marital home as RP, dad has to rebuild his life from scratch having lost those assets, only now inflation has soared so his mortgage is 5 times bigger than hers. Yes, it is a struggle. I'm not saying that means he shouldn't have to pay... but often on here it's just blithely viewed as "oh if you hadn't left, you'd be spending all that on them a month, that's what being a parent is". That may be so, but if he hadn't left he'd be in a much better position financially, separation does create imperfect situations that are often genuinely pretty hard to navigate, for both parties.

niceandspicynight · 04/07/2023 13:32

SchoolQuestionnaire · 04/07/2023 13:21

One of many but apparently you can only produce one single example from 8 years ago as evidence.

To be honest, I feel far more sorry for the son who now has to live with the fact that his father would rather take his own life than even consider paying for him. And actually told him so. This is very sad but it doesn’t change the fact that he was a cruel man.

Who says I could only provide one exampled, did you read my previous post. Do me a favour don't reply to me if you can't get your reading or compression right in the first place. 🙄

Gytgyt · 04/07/2023 13:39

aSofaNearYou · 04/07/2023 13:29

I think there is a lack of empathy on here which is not helpful. Yes people should pay for their children, and yes lots of men who could comfortably pay do hide their income to get out of it, which is shit. But I don't think it's as cut and dry as people on here make out. Until you've been on the other side struggling to pay, you don't really get it.

A common scenario - mum and dad split, mum keeps the marital home as RP, dad has to rebuild his life from scratch having lost those assets, only now inflation has soared so his mortgage is 5 times bigger than hers. Yes, it is a struggle. I'm not saying that means he shouldn't have to pay... but often on here it's just blithely viewed as "oh if you hadn't left, you'd be spending all that on them a month, that's what being a parent is". That may be so, but if he hadn't left he'd be in a much better position financially, separation does create imperfect situations that are often genuinely pretty hard to navigate, for both parties.

I don't agree with this CMS take a small percent anyway? What do you mean? It's not just the money is it often the mother is left to do all the school runs and the weekends are often left to mum too. No sympathy from me I'm afraid. There are some good dads out there granted usually they are not having to go down the CMS routes in the first place though.

HermioneWeasley · 04/07/2023 13:48

If a mother didn’t provide shelter for her children, if she left them cold and hungry and in rags she’d be prosecuted for negligence. It should be a criminal act for fathers not to pay for their kids because it’s the same - it’s child negligence.

aSofaNearYou · 04/07/2023 13:49

I don't agree with this CMS take a small percent anyway? What do you mean? It's not just the money is it often the mother is left to do all the school runs and the weekends are often left to mum too. No sympathy from me I'm afraid. There are some good dads out there granted usually they are not having to go down the CMS routes in the first place though.

Well, like I said, there's a lack of empathy. You're just providing an example of it. It's always said on here that it's a small percentage, but when you've been on the other side and you can't pay your bills as it is due to how much things have gone up, you realise that actually it is tough. Necessary, yes, but genuinely tough.

Nepmarthiturn · 04/07/2023 14:04

aSofaNearYou · 04/07/2023 13:29

I think there is a lack of empathy on here which is not helpful. Yes people should pay for their children, and yes lots of men who could comfortably pay do hide their income to get out of it, which is shit. But I don't think it's as cut and dry as people on here make out. Until you've been on the other side struggling to pay, you don't really get it.

A common scenario - mum and dad split, mum keeps the marital home as RP, dad has to rebuild his life from scratch having lost those assets, only now inflation has soared so his mortgage is 5 times bigger than hers. Yes, it is a struggle. I'm not saying that means he shouldn't have to pay... but often on here it's just blithely viewed as "oh if you hadn't left, you'd be spending all that on them a month, that's what being a parent is". That may be so, but if he hadn't left he'd be in a much better position financially, separation does create imperfect situations that are often genuinely pretty hard to navigate, for both parties.

Tough. Children come first. It's the duty of both parents to provide for them, above any other commitments they may wish to make, their own needs or desires, etc. Both should be paying 50% of the costs of raising the child. Then you cut your cloth accordingly for everything else with what is left. You make sacrifices and be a responsible adult and don't make new commitments until you can comfortably meet your current ones.

Expecting the other parent to pick up the tab for you or - if they can't - your child to suffer, is unacceptable and no decent parent or decent human being would do this even if it did mean their standard of living was impacted significantly. What do you think happens to resident parents who are left doing almost all caring (impacting their earning potential and wellbeing and social life far more) AND in almost all cases paying more than 50% of the costs as well? Do you think they get to prioritise their own living standards and what they'd rather spend their earnings on?

It's also a huge presumption to assume the poor man contributed more to the assets at separation and is left with a lower or "unfair" share. Many women now are the higher earners, plus do most of the childcare/ housework. I was always the higher earner, by far. Also main carer. And it was suggested I should give ex-H - who has no contact with his children - spousal maintenance when I divorced him!! When a couple separate the woman becomes the resident parent, often continues to do or pay for most of the childcare, arrange work around that damaging ger career progression opportunities, continues to pay most of the other living costs for the child. And the men moan they are told to give a measly 15% salary for their own children?! Who in a couple with kids has 85% of their salary free to spend on what they want to outside the obligations to house, feed, clothe and otherwise provide for the family? Why should the non-resident parent be allowed to do that - who can work whenever they like etc - and expect the one doing most of the work of raising the children to also pick up most of their share of the costs? It's barmy and not what other countries do. It's morally reprehensible and shows just how misogynistic UK society is because obviously nobody cares because most resident/ lone parents are women (nearly 90%). And even other women feel soooooo sorry for these poor, poor men asked to make a tiny contribution (and it is tiny in proportion to the actual cost in all but a very small percentage of cases) to the cost of them raising their children. 🙄🙄

These men who are expected to contribute a frankly insulting proportion of their income to raising the children they created that comes nowhere near close to 50% of the actual cost and then moan about it are frankly pathetic and as I said earlier: the world won't miss these specimens if they find living up to even that very tiny proportion of the responsibility of being a passably decent parent too much to cope with. All of the evidence shows that women spend a much higher proportion of their income on their children and do much more of the childcare/ raising of them and these men are bleating about how unfair it is?And the impact on their mental health of having someone else do 90% of the job of raising their kids and pay for most of it as well? It is the very definition of pathetic. A stronger word is required really but don't want to get my post deleted.

So no, I'm not weeping in sympathy. 🤦🏻‍♀️😵‍💫😆

Nepmarthiturn · 04/07/2023 14:10

This reply has been deleted

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YetMoreNewBeginnings · 04/07/2023 14:16

@MaxwellCat You need to ask CMS to do a variation based on unearned income because he’s a complex earner.

They can do this through HMRC if he declares his rental income (if he doesn’t then you can ask HMRC to investigate).

Put your request in writing to them, recorded delivery, and follow it up keeping a note of who you speak to each time. If they don’t proceed as they should ask your MP to get involved - often they can be a spur on.

aSofaNearYou · 04/07/2023 14:21

Ok @Nepmarthiturn.

I don't really have time to respond to that essay in detail so shall leave it there.

My point was that separating and thus dividing your incomes, but still requiring both parents to separately provide a house large enough for the kids, creates a sticky situation for all parties. Personally, I can empathise with both positions. It is difficult. And yes, in some cases - particularly currently given the difference between a mortgage acquired 10 years ago versus a mortgage acquired now - that can be hugely challenging for the parent who did not keep the old house and mortgage.

Imo, not a lot of balanced thought is put into that by posters on here, just vitriol. If that's what you want to do, fine. My comment wasn't directed at you, it was an alternative perspective.