Trans etc at school / all going too far?

[Peverellshire]

AIBU to think that there are a growing number of below 16s identifying as opposite gender?

Incidents in school where pupils called out for not acknowledging ‘Brian is now fully Bryony’. Etc. As example.

AIBU to think that these sensitive discussions and explorations should all be realised, if appropriate, post school, when children are young adults? For many reasons. Pref Pronouns in primary school, ok?

Do you think people who transition are stupid?
I think they have massive mental health problems, but not all caused by body dysmorphia and not resolved by radical plastic surgery.

Do you think they haven’t researched the surgery?
I know the truth isn't told by many surgeons. I know if people are desperately unhappy they won't want to listen. I know children don't know what it all means, they don't have the lived experience to understand the consequences. I know parents are told better a live son than a dead daughter.

To me, that tells me just how distressed someone is by their gender identity not matching their physical body, that they will accept that risk as an improvement.
That tells me these people have massive mental health issues and are looking at surgery to fix their problems. It won't work. But even then, we are talking about children here. Not adults.

So you’re essentially saying ‘be you, but we won’t accept who you say you are’… and you wonder why people don’t want to accept that?
It is always telling what people read into words. 'You be you, but we will treat you equal' is translated into 'we will not accept you'. So acceptance is treating children as the opposite sex, nothing else is good enough?

Well, we are at an impasse then. Because nothing will force people to accept your version of the truth as reality. No human can change their sex.

I do feel like a lot of people who object to the term cis- react as though it is a disparaging nickname that has just been invented for them.

It turns women into a subgroup of our own sex and implies that (somehow) there are other people who are of a different sex but are (somehow) just as significantly women as women are. People of a different sex who have as much right to speak for women as we do ourselves. That's disparaging in itself. Doesn't matter if it's using made-up Latin like a spell from Harry Potter.

It's actually just a slightly nerdy prefix that means "not trans".

You might believe so, but you would be mistaken. Nerdy bit to follow:

would you say "I am not right-handed, I'm just 'handed'"? I mean, that would be weird, right? Especially if you were in the middle of a discussion about why some people find it difficult to use your scissors.

Righthanded and lefthanded are two subgroups of "handed" if you divide people by hand dominance. So what is your criterion for dividing people up into men and women in the first place? Transwomen are a subgroup of people but they're not a subgroup of women, at least not by sex. By sex, women and transwomen are mutually exclusive categories and using the words "women" and "transwomen" expresses the nature of the difference exactly. You only need to say "cis women" if you are using some novel (and possibly disparaging ) definition of what "women" are.

The argument about female only spaces doesn’t hold up to me.

Live dick pics for all female people then? Girls and women of all ages. Because that is what you are advocating for. No sex segregation anywhere.

I find it very frustrating when someone lacks empathy so much they are willing to push for complete absence of sex segregated facilities and who care if that means many women and girls get denied the opportunity to participate in society.

There are girls who instead of being lesbian now identify as boys because lesbian is wrong but trans is good

It's not a good time to be a child so much hate and distain for being who you are yet so much pressure to be "your authentic self"

I think the whole trans movement is very much a middle class issue. In my son's, very working class, high school there's hardly any trans kids. In my nephews private high school they're all trans, liberal lefties kids in other words. Just my theory. Maybe a teacher can come along and put me right.

This, I don’t believe for a second. I am a lesbian, as is dd, and it’s a complete non issue. Whereas being trans gives rise to so much hate and oppression as can be seen on this thread.

So many trans people are gay post-transition that this argument doesn’t make sense at all. And is it supposed to be the same for gay males?

We are definitely at an impasse, as your views are abhorrent to me.

I think you’ll find that outside the mn microcosm there are many people who disagree with you.

*We are definitely at an impasse, as your views are abhorrent to me.

I think you’ll find that outside the mn microcosm there are many people who disagree with you.*

I know you will find that nearly everybody has a line in the sand. Be it male people in womens sports, male rapists in womens prisons, dismantling women focused healthcare or even male people in womens toilets, hardly anybody is as radical in denying the existence of the two human sexes from society as you and other transactivists. You are the minority in your beliefs.

FatGirlSwim, how are the large numbers of people 'detransitioning' explained, and the numbers of children quietly deciding maybe they're actually not 'in the wrong body' after all?

You stated "Cis isn't offensive".

That's unilaterally declaring that to be the case, and you were and are wrong.

My son is year 9. He said the same. Especially girls. It baffles him.

It’s really sad that some people drag asexuals (actual asexuals) in to these conversations.
Okey, so your daughter needed time or whatever, but some people really are asexuals and no time will change that and it doesn’t mean that these people aren’t mature.

I’m just saying this so that in future you/other’s won’t make this mistake / hurt asexuals 😊

What a ridiculous analogy. So you are saying women and tw are both women and women must be relegated to cis women. Plus cis means you identify with feminine stereotypes which is offensive and regressive.

It is great that the LGB kids have somewhere to discuss coming out or dating issues but the TQ element seems to be causing a really worrying amount of social contagion. With girl, after girl changing identity - the ones that change first and loudest usually come from very conservative backgrounds where being gay is not acceptable.

The acceptability plays a part in this. If you come from a family that doesn't accept anything other than heterosexuality and you come out as gay, there's not going to be a particularly large amount of support or protection for you, ironically because in wider society being gay is largely accepted.

But if you come out as trans, there'll be a hell of a lot more support and protection, so it will be harder for your family to reject your identity and therefore in that respect it's "safer" to be trans than gay.

How would you define "woman" then, if you can subcategorise it into trans women and cis women?
Would it be possible for a cis woman to identify as a trans woman?

I do feel like a lot of people who object to the term cis- react as though it is a disparaging nickname that has just been invented for them.

Think of any other non-chosen identity characteristic - e.g. black, Chinese, 6 year-old. Then imagine that there are adults who 'identify as' and therefore claim to belong to the group that has that characteristic even though they are in fact in no way whatsoever black, Chinese or 6 years old. Then imagine announcing that henceforth anyone who genuinely belongs to one of those groups is to be called cis-Chinese etc. Not at all offensive of course. Just a logical, benign way of describing people who are non- trans-Chinese.

Nothing offensive at all in forceably redefining the words women use to describe themselves so they have to attach a fucking ‘just nerdy’ false prefix to their descriptors.

Nothing fucking offensive at all. Just science, innit?

(Said while those who completely fucking deny science force women to accept they are now a subset of their own sex category). I am sure people lack to capacity to think this through critically.

Thing is, mammals (including humans) can't change sex.

Moreover, there is no such thing as gender identity (see, e.g. Alex Byrne (Philosophy Professor, MIT), 'What Is Gender Identity? - The elusive true gender self': "... If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence ...".)

Given which, it would appear there are no trans children at school or anywhere else, not in truth.

Of course there are some who say they have changed sex, and some who say they have a gender identity. (Children make mistakes ... and, even, I have known one or two who told fibs, believe it or not.) How should we treat such children? Possibly in the same way we treat those who say they are cats and so on? - With sympathy (always!), but also with appropriate humour and common sense. Hmm?

How do we treat thin children who think they are fat and so want to avoid food? Perhaps there's a moral in that for how we should treat girl children who think they are boys and so want to avoid puberty: try to help them, best we can. (But not, 'help them avoid food' or 'help them avoid puberty', of course ... That would be awful, wouldn't it?)

(Of course waters might be muddied by the legal fiction of Gender Recognition Certificates. But that determinedly does not apply to children. So leave that be for now. For children, matters are clear.)

As far as children are concerned, it's well past time to consign all the trans rubbish to where it belongs: in the bin.

Once again, there are no trans children, in or out of school. Thinking you are doesn't make it so. (Which, again, is diametrically opposed to being gay: thinking you are attracted to your own sex just is being so attracted, so thinking you are gay does make it so. Parse this how you like, 'LGB' just doesn't match with 'T'. Not at all. Not in the least.)

Tldr: If a trans child is one who has changed sex or one whose gender identity is such-and-such, (doesn't match, blah, whatever ...), then there are no trans children. None.

I thought ‘chestfeeding’ was an urban myth, but appeared re: some police literature.

Chestfeeding is not an urban myth.

It is used in the name of trans inclusivity.

The NHS has a page on it. https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/having-a-baby-if-you-are-lgbt-plus/chestfeeding-if-youre-trans-or-non-binary/

But the aim is to dehumanise women from the process and to normalise the idea of trans women (men with a fetish) to feed chemicals to babies via their chest.

The above says you can breast feed/chest feed if you’ve had top surgery. Painful/difficult (?) or express.

Yes it's about normalising breast (chest feeding) for trans men.

But the whole point is that it is changing the language normalising people other than the mother/ woman feeding the baby.

Hence why it is so hard to call out a man who is using a baby as prop for his fetish.

I expect they all did.

Read the Cass review, apologies it's already been mentioned.

I do feel like a lot of people who object to the term cis- react as though it is a disparaging nickname that has just been invented for them

Which I guess would be understandable if it was, but it's actually just a slightly nerdy prefix that means "not trans

No. it is short for ‘cisgender’ which means you have decided that person has a gender identity and that it matches their sexed body. Many women completely reject that idea. There is very little of the standard femininity that I relate to and was often called a tomboy as a girl. I have gone through times of hating my body as well as being ok with it. This is a very common experience for girls and women. For someone else to come along and put a gender identity on us because we are not trans is intrusive. The need to label us in relation to trans people is so strong there are videos all over Tik Tok called, “not cis? Congratulations you are trans!” As if our very existence is only relative to trans people.

We are not ‘non trans’ or ‘non men’ or ‘cisgendered’ and you do not know our ‘gender identity’ when we say we are women because most of us talk in terms of biology and would never speak of our internal feelings of ourselves in such naval gazing, self indulgent ways.

We are not a subset of our own sex class and when tran activist’s tell us, “cis not a slur, it’s just what you are” for some reason they don’t like the response, “Man is not a slur, it’s just what you are.”