Trans etc at school / all going too far?

[Peverellshire]

AIBU to think that there are a growing number of below 16s identifying as opposite gender?

Incidents in school where pupils called out for not acknowledging ‘Brian is now fully Bryony’. Etc. As example.

AIBU to think that these sensitive discussions and explorations should all be realised, if appropriate, post school, when children are young adults? For many reasons. Pref Pronouns in primary school, ok?

It's just that in the context of a discussion specifically about trans people

Even in that discussion it is easy to differentiate. They are a trans woman I am a woman.

Unless you are suggesting that they are women and the cis prefix is needed to show that women are not men?

Otherwise I genuinely can't ever see a context in which it is necessary.

Agreed you can call yourself whatever you like.

Yes, you’ve got it.
Me and quite a few others, I think you’ll find.

Thank you

If I find it offensive...it's offensive.

Just like any other words... Some people use them and don't find them offensive, others do

It you unilaterally deciding it isn't offensive is utterly ridiculous.

@FatGirlSwim, do you have an answer to my question about the man and the 'breastfeeding'?

The argument about female only spaces doesn’t hold up to me.

The argument about social contagion doesn’t.

The argument that if we remove gender stereotypes we don’t need a gender identity doesn’t stand up to me.

The argument that ‘we get the body we’re born with’ doesn’t make sense to me.

I don’t actually know anything about that breastfeeding case. Is it a trans woman inducing lactation to supplement with breast milk? In which case i don’t see a problem.

Or is it a trans man breastfeeding a baby they’ve given birth to? In which case i don’t really have an issue with how anyone else feeds their baby, it doesn’t seem as though it affects anyone other than that family and isn’t doing any harm to anyone.

Sorry, not ignoring, I’d missed it.

It wasn’t me who made a unilateral decision on that and wanted to speak for the whole of mumsnet!

The argument that ‘we get the body we’re born with’ doesn’t make sense to me.

Why not?

You think there's another body out there for a mis-gendered soul to port into?

Or some cosmic mix up when matching bodies and souls?

What is it?

I’m a teacher - 20 years in secondary schools.

The ‘identifying as trans’ trend peaked as covid hit and is now over(ish).

The occasional child (always autistic girls) changes their name now, sometimes parents agree, sometimes they don’t. Most have reverted back to their original name. I taught a girl who went on to have double mastectomy; it was clear she was suffering with undiagnosed ND and had a parent who, let’s say, was over-invested in medical procedures.

I was worried about it all for a few years, but I now have a bit of perspective and can see that it’s just teenagers expressing themselves, as they always have.

No problem but going back to your first post you said-

I personally wouldn’t be happy as a cis woman to have a penis, a man’s voice, etc. Because I feel like a woman, independently of my personality, interests, what I wear

A cis woman (a woman whose gender identity -whatever that is, aligns with her body) can never have a penis or a mans voice so I'm not sure what your point is?

And how do you know you feel like a woman? I just feel like me.

And why should we encourage anyone to consider their body is wrong? There is nothing wrong with a man who likes things that a stereotypically more feminine or a girl to prefer not to engage in girly stereotypes. My teenage daughter wears clothes that are found in the boys section, they are just clothes. People might tell her that this must mean she feels like a boy, but what does that even mean?

What really concerns me about all of this is the fact that all trans healthcare is experimental, I think that it is tragic that young women are having double mastectomies because they are being encouraged that if they don't do femininity right they must be boys.

If you have given the green light to any of that, you must have had either, a lobotomy, or you're trolling.

I always thought that when people hear about 'x' issue, that'll peak them; be that men in women's sports, men sexually assaulting little girls in public toilets, or sexually abusing an infant in public...

Turns out not to be the case.

There will always be child abusers in society. Of course i’m not condoning that. I don’t think this anti-trans stance is going to resolve it.

There are people who become teachers, youth workers, etc in order to gain access to children. But we don’t deal with that by demonising teachers and youth workers. We accept that there’s a minority and do our best to prevent it.

Excluding trans women isn’t the answer for me.

It doesn’t make sense to me because it’s ONLY gender reassignment it seems to be applied to. There are all kinds of cosmetic procedures, both performed on people with ‘normal’ bodies and on people who are different from the norm in their appearance.

People do all kinds of things to change their bodies to reflect their identity.

The occasional child (always autistic girls) changes their name now, sometimes parents agree, sometimes they don’t. Most have reverted back to their original name. I taught a girl who went on to have double mastectomy; it was clear she was suffering with undiagnosed ND and had a parent who, let’s say, was over-invested in medical procedures.

Yes my daughter is autistic, she is not in school which has meant she's largely shielded from this.

But autistic girls are obvious candidates because sensory issues often mean they can't tolerate some of the clothing that girls wear and make up etc. Often they wear short styles because hair accessories or even cuts are painful.

Add to that that autism being a social communication disorder means that they often struggle with girly chit chat so socially so seem different from the other girls.

Then give them rainbows , unicorns and a 'cool' identity in school and you have a perfect storm because these girls really WANT to fit in.

But what is insidious is that this is not neutral as your tale of your ex student going on to have a mastectomy demonstrates.

And there was I thinking you may just be open minded enough to have a respectful discussion.

The bottom line is that the position is abhorrent to me, just like all other forms of prejudice and discrimination, and to the vast majority of people I know irl (barring one family member)

Come on...think. You're almost there. What do all those people have in common??

'the ones who become teachers, youth workers, etc in order to gain access to children. But we don’t deal with that by demonising teachers and youth workers'

What do we do to combat these problems?
We certainly don't create a sacred caste, which elevates certain demographics so they are beyond reproach?

@lifeturnsonadime

In the case of the girl who underwent surgery, school were safeguarding her on a daily basis (MH reasons). We were watchful waiting. It was actually home which seemed to be putting the pressure on to have surgery (I suspect factitious illness tendencies as I have had many conversations with parents).

People do all kinds of things to change their bodies to reflect their identity.

They don't claim those things change their fundamental identity, being in the world, or rights, however.

A woman getting a tattoo is not asking to be seen as anything other than a woman with a tattoo.

See, I can actually appreciate this point. Although I’d go with ‘communication difference’ rather than ‘communication disorder’

I can actually see that many teens may experiment with gender identity and not actually end up settling with that identity into adulthood, and that autistic teens (not just girls) are likely to be vulnerable.

I do think there needs to be safeguards. But as another pp said, how do we know who is ‘genuinely trans’ without putting them through a traumatic puberty? It’s really complex and not straightforward, and I actually think the Terfs undermine genuine discussion of that, especially by not respecting chosen pronouns etc.

ameanstreakamilewide if you have to resort to childish insults, you obviously have no valid point to make.

I do think there needs to be safeguards. But as another pp said, how do we know who is ‘genuinely trans’ without putting them through a traumatic puberty?

Such a contentious statement. Most children find puberty traumatic.
But it is a necessary part of growing up.

Why do you think that some children should never go through puberty?

I find this completely horrific.

@FatGirlSwim

Puberty is extremely traumatic for autistic girls. Research suggests PMDD is highly correlated with autism in females. Add sensory/identity issues to the mix, and you have a real pickle, over many years.

I would caution against making life-altering decisions during this time.