Loud kids always come out on top

[23Elfie]

Might be about to get flamed but here goes...

Is it me or do the louder kids always come out on top? And those that are the quieter, don't make a fuss kinda kids just get swept to the side?

Feeling like this about my DD, she's not overly confident but really tries her best and never throws a strop or complains if something doesn't go her way (to the teacher/coach/person in charge) just takes it on the chin and then gets upset at home.

Watched her today get totally mugged off at sports day, definitely came 3rd in a race although the 4th place person was very close, 4th place kid is a loud, bossy child who seems to always get their way and was awarded 3rd place to avoid a kick off I think.

That's just one example though - loud bossy kids who kick off if they don't get their way, always get the main parts in plays etc - quiet kids given the best parts.

Seems like the quiet kids get over looked constantly and I wish DD would speak up - but is it too much to ask for the quiet kids to get noticed without having to make a total show of everything they do?

Feel really deflated for DD on her behalf and don't know what else we can do to up her confidence to speak up a bit. She does a couple of sports clubs but it's the same there too, she joins in and plays well but there's always the golden kids in everything.

She has a group of friends but is never the 'leader' or if she has an idea the others don't seem to listen much - what can I do to get her to assert herself a little bit? I encourage as much as I can to speak up but not sure what else I can do?

Shy children can be completely different when playing a role. My child is selective mute (in class) but acts confidently in plays. I think there always needs to be an audition process for things like plays so assumptions aren't made.

I'm a primary teacher and have seen on many occasions that being loud on class doe not mean you will be any good at acting in a play.

Every child is different. I was always quiet, got over-looked all the time. I always tried my best but was always overshadowed by the louder, brasher children who might not have done as well as me but got noticed because of being so loud.
My youngest daughter had a lot of problems until she went to Ju Jitsu. She learnt a lot besides the martial art which gave her more confidence to stand up and be counted.
Hope you can find a way to help your child but don't expect too much too soon.

Yes, exactly. Posters on here have some weird, confused ideas about introversion, which they confuse with timidity, passivity or shyness, and extroversion, which they confuse with loudness/boisterousness/ talkativeness.

A loud, talkative person isn’t necessarily an extrovert. I’m a sociable introvert (I love company and going out, value my friendships etc, but need a lot of alone time to recharge), extremely confident, and my job involves daily speaking to hundreds of people. One of my most successful friends is an introvert and an extremely sought-after QC.

This, absolutely. I was a quiet kid. I took everything in, did well in what I did but wasn't loud til much later and even now only when I need to be. She'll figure it out. I have a great job now, which requires both skill sets, a good husband (he actually does stuff cos he knows I won't accept him not doing his share but I haven't had to be loud to get that, just strong minded) and a lovely family and life. Just keep doing what you're doing and encourage her to speak when she feels she needs to.

yes I agree and it's always been this way the same with loud bossy adults too. There were 2 bossy, loud, confident kids in my class back in the 80s these 2 kids were picked for EVERYTHING, every bloody year right through primary. The rest of us never got a look in. One of these 2 kids went on to be in a famous pop group!

Her time will come. People eventually get tired of the loudmouth and see them for what they are - empty vessels!

Nope you’re spot on. It was the same when I was at school. I was quiet and was just ignored. And yesterday my son went to his prom. The kid who has been trying to fight him and numerous other lads for months won prom king??! Riddle me that one!

@GlassWall

Spot on.

I'm naturally talkative, and outwardly confident. Actually I'm an over-thinker & overly concerned with others' feelings. As a manager, this is not a great trait, though in moderation, of course, caring about others is very good!

My skills serve me well at times. And at other times it's more challenging. This is true for most people.

I work in an environment where I come across many confident women in senior roles. I have really come to admire quietly spoken, thoughtful women who are considered in what they say. I'm not naturally that person, but I often observe & learn from them, and incorporate elements of what they do.

My kids are loud. I find at school they actually got less support from teachers because ‘they’re ok’ so they don’t get checked in on or encouraged to contribute, their ideas are not solicited because they willingly share them anyway. They will have their hands up when nobody else does but they’ll be ignored because the teacher wants someone quieter to have a go at it. They are encouraged to ‘be less’ rather than the quieter kids who are encouraged to ‘be more’. I’m not sure which is more damaging.
my child came second at something at sports day and they gave the sticker to another kid, my kid cried and he didn’t get the sticker even though he should have, no idea why the other kid got it I imagine the teacher didn’t watch properly I can’t imagine it’s because the other child would have caused drama.

depending on job/industry I do find the working world easier to navigate for extraverts but school I think suits intraverts (there was always a lot of ‘be quiet’ at my school).

I know 2 dcs who have high achieving parents. Their mum actively encourages them to be as loud as possible, they are never asked to be a bit quieter. Think that the mum believes that loudness equals confidence. They just appear obnoxious tbh.

Your daughter is still young, she may have yet to blossom. But as a woman in a male-dominated industry (and similar role - I'm the only woman in my team and the youngest by 10 years). I've attended quite a few career coaching sessions and received these tips:

• Project confidence. Keep your voice low (i.e no need to shout), but firm.
• Avoid tentative language.

https://goop.com/wellness/career-money/how-women-undermine-themselves-with-words/ -Redirect people. If people keep talking over you, or repeat something you've said don't be afraid to point out that it was YOUR idea.

• Avoid rambling. Make succinct points.

Of course this is a bit too corporate for a child. But there are ways and means to assert yourself.

People don't respect the loud ones who talk over everything IRL, that's true. But if you don't speak up, then your ideas can't be heard. It's an important skill to cultivate but comes with time and doing confidence building activities.

I think you'll find the teachers are a lot more aware of the quieter children than you fear.

But yes, in life. the pushy person often wins. Any amount of 'affirmative action' at school isn't going to change that.

My son is the quiet and calm type, very much a listener. But for some reason he is noticed by his private school. He is their poster boy and they say he models the schools values of integrity and humility. At his previous state school, where he was bullied they told me he needed to toughen up!! I told them we need some people to be caring, not everyone has to be a bully to get on. We parted ways 🤷‍♀️

@MykonosMaiden

I've been at several courses which actively coached women to keep their voices low, adopt power poses etc - basically 'act like a man'
It's misogynistic bullshit & I reject it entirely.

Women can be confident without needing to mask their natural styles.

You've misunderstood. Low as in volume. Not pitch. That is why I explicitly stated 'no need to shout'. Not 'make your voice deeper'. When you're not listened to your voice has a tendency to become louder. But also, raising your voice in response to a couple of people with loud, booming voices just makes everyone sound angry.

Using tentative language, lack of confidence (ignoring jobs when they don't meet all the criteria) has been well documented as something that holds women back. I don't need to post the studies, you can Google it yourself.

FTR I don't do power poses. I haven't changed the way I dress, despite people assuming I'm the project manager/secretary/whatever, and not the technical lead. Just because I'm beautiful and well groomed.

But if I hadn't 'thought like a man'. Hadn't grabbed every opportunity, strategically blown my own trumpet I wouldn't be where I am today.

Some people are extroverts, some people are introverts. However even introverted people need to be assertive and stand up for themselves when required. Does not mean changing who they are or being 'loud', just being able to speak up and be heard when it is important their views come across.

This is just a sad truth of life. It’s happens when your a kid and happens when your an adult.

Very true and DS is a prime example.

He has always, always, loved computers, coding, all that stuff. He spent a few weeks in the summer holidays in 2018 with Sage doing a coding workshop. He was 10, by far the youngest (all the others were 13-16). He was that young that the organiser asked if he may get a bit lost but he showed his skills and got to stay. Got given a certificate at the end and the guy running it said he was extremely gifted. All self taught

Going to secondary in 2019, he got put in second from bottom group for most things. He does have SEN but is bright and passed his SATs.

He went up to middle groups for most things but was stuck in the middle for computer science.

He was bored! Said he would finish the work within 5 minutes. Teacher was oblivious. He wouldn't speak up

Obviously, Covid got in the way.

By year 9 he had enough. Said he hated school and was sick of computer class because he was doing work he did at home on the weekend when was in year 3 at primary.

So he emailed the headteacher. Was very polite.

Head, bless her, spoke to head of computer science. He agreed to give DS a test to see his abilities.

DS got put up. 4 groups. Teacher chuckled and said he was embarrassed at how DS had been missed (not by him, he didn't teach him).

DS won two computing awards at the end of year 9. Is now doing GCSE computer science and predicted 9. Has been spotted by Microsoft already with discussions of an internship at 18.

So when they eventually speak up after having enough, great things can happen!

I think it also depends on the teacher.

my DD was chosen as class captain in year R, her teacher said
she was mature, kind, helpful and sensible so would be good in the meetings they had to attend.

The following year when I attended her parents evening in year 1, her teacher
said “Oh Charlotte is so quiet, I don’t really know her!!”.. I was so upset I went home and cried…. I felt that she was being lost in the school system and that a class of 30 was too big, shocked the teacher hadn’t made efforts to get to know every single child in their class.
Teachers have always said ‘she’s very quiet” throughout school… she’s had some teachers though that seem to really like the quiet, polite, helpful once’s and now (in seniors) she gets lots of comments about being a really nice student who has a wonderful attitude to learning and is always respectful and polite (unlike many of the little horrors in the place!)

I don't think you have to be loud to succeed, but being confident and assertive and speaking up when something is wrong is the way to go. Most people find overly loud and garrulous adults and children an absolute pain in the arse.

You are right but as kids get older you can talk to them about it and the fact that generally life is not fair and it is something people need to learn to deal with. DS2 and I used to have a laugh about the fact that as a quiet plodder he never got school awards so every end of year award night I would tell him that if he didn’t get an award he would get the family “hey they overlooked you again” award which meant he got dinner at a restaurant of his choice. He far preferred this to the certificate the “high achievers” got.

My daughter was quiet in primary school but some teachers in secondary really helped her develop her confidence, particularly her form tutor. I picked her secondary school as it was smaller than most other local ones and I was very impressed by it's pastoral care at the open day and she really blossomed by the time she was 15. She's happy, teachers have commented that she's more confident.

I had wanted her to try guides, as I thought it would have been good for her self- confidence, but she didn't want to, but could be good for your daughter.

It is very hard not to worry about your quieter kid being overlooked, but do bear in mind that no one wants to spend any time with loud obnoxious adults.

I have been thinking about this recently too. My daughter is much the same. Quiet, works hard and steadily, not a massive achiever and not in need of extra help. She doesn't win the star of the week awards ever etc etc. However, yesterday at the end of year awards, she won the award for literary for P1 and P2. I was delighted obviously and it was reassuring that the quiet, steady workers are recognised for it.

I think you should send video footage to the head teacher showing your daughter coming third as she deserves to be recognised for it. And every head teacher loves dealing with this sort of issue.

I don't think loud kids always come out on top. The confident ones do tend to be more suited to lead roles in the school plays etc, because lots of kids don't like the limelight. At our school there are a mixture of loud and quiet house captains, eco warriors, learning ambassadors etc. It's about recognising each child's strengths, and if you don't feel the school are doing this then you need to talk to them about it.

I haven’t read through every page of comments but in case no one has mentioned it, I’d recommend The Confidence Code for Girls. I’m reading it with my 8yo DD and have seen improvements in her assertiveness and confidence in a relatively short space of time. There is also a journal that you can get to complement it. A tiny bit of the content is a bit advanced (she doesn’t have a phone, for example, and sometimes phones are mentioned) and it’s American - but I read it to her so change the wording slightly on occasion to make it more relevant and accessible to DD.