Loud kids always come out on top

[23Elfie]

Might be about to get flamed but here goes...

Is it me or do the louder kids always come out on top? And those that are the quieter, don't make a fuss kinda kids just get swept to the side?

Feeling like this about my DD, she's not overly confident but really tries her best and never throws a strop or complains if something doesn't go her way (to the teacher/coach/person in charge) just takes it on the chin and then gets upset at home.

Watched her today get totally mugged off at sports day, definitely came 3rd in a race although the 4th place person was very close, 4th place kid is a loud, bossy child who seems to always get their way and was awarded 3rd place to avoid a kick off I think.

That's just one example though - loud bossy kids who kick off if they don't get their way, always get the main parts in plays etc - quiet kids given the best parts.

Seems like the quiet kids get over looked constantly and I wish DD would speak up - but is it too much to ask for the quiet kids to get noticed without having to make a total show of everything they do?

Feel really deflated for DD on her behalf and don't know what else we can do to up her confidence to speak up a bit. She does a couple of sports clubs but it's the same there too, she joins in and plays well but there's always the golden kids in everything.

She has a group of friends but is never the 'leader' or if she has an idea the others don't seem to listen much - what can I do to get her to assert herself a little bit? I encourage as much as I can to speak up but not sure what else I can do?

I agree OP, then you see it in the work place as well.

As a very chatty extravert, I have never understood the quiet and shy people. I always think "what are you actually afraid of - what's the worst that can happen if you speak up?"

Anyway, maybe getting her into a drama group outside of school or martial arts would teach her to be more confident and assertive.

I used to be like your dd. At high school I had a small group of friends, same at college and then found my tribe again at uni. It was then that I really discovered my choice and became much more authoritative. I'm still a quiet person, that will always be my personality but don't mistake that as being less assertive. I stand my ground and can make myself heard.

I have a dd like yours and see a lot of me in her. She's only 7 but her teacher has remarked that she is very quiet and wrote it no less than 4 times in her end of year report. What she didn't comment on was that dd plucked up the courage to ask for a speaking part in assembly, she spoke clearly and loudly and was very confident despite the hall being filled with parents.

The advice I have to give is similar to what I am doing with my dd and my parents did with me. She should know she is loved for the person she is, that builds confidence, encourage her to try new groups ( we are starting guides in August) to meet new friends and put herself out there in terms if introducing herself and showing an interest in others.It will also allow her to realise she is good at different things and that builds an inner confidence and resilience.

As for at school, I intend to speak to my dd's new teacher and I would suggest you do the same. Ask for her to give your dd the opportunity to speak out and engage.

I definitely recognise this from primary school when my DC’s were there. DD had a very loud friend, totally overbearing child. I have always encouraged my DC’s to be independent, such as ordering in Costa, McDs, buying train tickets at the station, navigating on the tube, self-check out at supermarket, talking to the bus driver, etc. Interestingly loud friend hadn’t the confidence to do any of those things and DD often shone in similar situations. There’s lots of ways to encourage confidence. Sport definitely helps.

The way somebody behaves, in social or professional settings, could be down to a number of reasons, including past trauma or other psychological reasons. wouldn't have thought it's as simple as saying you can't understand why not everyone's like you.

We had the same on sports day. It was only because another parent had taken a video (permitted by our school as long as it wasn't shared online) that showed that the louder child didn't win.

Loud parents of children seem to get their own way more often I think. Yes complain about the bad loser being given third place. You are actually helping the bad loser, as it will be a mighty shock to them in the adult world when this pandering does not happen.

From my personal experience OP I'd agree with you - and I say that as as a person who isn't shy and is definitely assertive but happy to be in the background.

If it's any consolation I now find at my stage in life it's the introverts I know that have substance to their conversation, are articulate and actually listen rather than merely stay quiet until they can get their opinions shoe horned in. They are also the people who are calm when shit hits the tan and Get Stuff Done.

There's different sides to this isn't there - agreed it isn't about being an introvert/extravert. You can be a confident introvert who is e.g. competitive, strives, will challenge things like a teacher making a mistake in awarding someone else a prize. But who enjoys their own company and needs their own time and space to recharge away from social situations.

I would say it's more about increasing self-confidence and a child feeling that they are as entitled to things as anyone else and to know their own mind and values, and to be able to fight for those. For example, if they are playing a game against another child and the other child cheats - would they call them out, or tell a teacher/parent? Or just ignore it and let the cheater win. If their friends are making bullying, teasing remarks about another child, what would they do. Do they have their own ideas, opinions, and feel able to express these - to suggest what they'd like to do next weekend, to say to their friends can we play XYZ my way this time, to advocate for themselves.

You can't always have your way, and life is about compromises. But that shouldn't mean you're a doormat who gets walked over all the time, or that you sit their quietly while everyone else gets what they want, or you hold your tongue feeling ashamed for not speaking out when you see people being mean or doing things they shouldn't.

Loud kids take up teachers’ time and do get more attention in class. Where quiet children win is in their exams. This is also when the loud children tend to struggle. The quiet children often get the top GCSEs. This can lead on to higher education and well paid jobs. Better the long term win for the quiet children, than the short term win for those who shout and demand.

You should raise the Sports day issue, it isn't fair. However, DS is loud and frequently gets blamed for things that are instigated by sly, quiet kids who wind him up and sit there smugly like butter wouldn"t melt. His enthusiastic, cheerrful and sometimes whimsical nature means that he's often percieved as a clown and people underestimate his intelligence when he's actually very academically bright. He's missed out on things because of this. Luckily his teacher this year figured all that out fairly quickly but I'm dreading the start of next year. It's just his natural personality and he has the same insecurities as every other child. I don't think it's helpful to reinforce stereotypes about extroverts and introverts when all kids have their struggles.

Watched her today get totally mugged off at sports day, definitely came 3rd in a race although the 4th place person was very close, 4th place kid is a loud, bossy child who seems to always get their way and was awarded 3rd place to avoid a kick off I think

I mean, who gives a fuck about this really.

As a life long shy introvert actually what xela said makes lot of sense. What indeed am I scared of? I know I don't speak up because I'm scared of sounding either stupid or rude. What's the worst that can happen? Well, in most cases people thinking that I'm stupid or rude and while that thought troubles me in reality actually nothing terrible will happen and I know myself that in most cases I will not actually be considered stupid or rude. And if I am? So what? Definitely something to remind myself of the next time I wonder whether I need to speak up.

Not true. Often loud confident kids are clever as well. We should all be raising out daughters to be confident enough to stand up for themselves, although I know on mumsnet Drawing Attention To Omeself is a mortal sin.

This. Being confident and assertive (or "loud") is definitely a good thing in life. It should be encouraged.

I taught in a very small primary school with less than 100 kids from rec/y6. We always had mixed classes and sometimes part Yr groups were moved up. This was always done on an academic / maturity (will they manage) basis. Never done on 'they'll be easier to manage' - we would get more complaints asking why their kids hadn't moved up!

I agree with you OP. You see this at parties for example. Some children will ask loudly for their party bags if they haven't received them. Others will go home without them and be quietly upset.

Coming third or fourth in a race at bloody sports day doesn’t matter. I’m struggling to understand why you’d even care. However, as someone who was quiet in school, I do think building self confidence and assertiveness is important, especially in girls.

Being quieter can make it more difficult in the workplace, but some people on this thread are far too defeatist. Sometimes being able to take things in and not rush to open your mouth can be an excellent, valued quality. She does need to know that she is absolutely as important and worthy as the louder kids. There’s no need for her to become them, but she can find her own strength. I think drama or other extra curriculars would be helpful as she gets older.

Well then the kids that haven’t received them should be taught that it’s ok to ask for them as well. I’m struggling to see the great injustice here. Kids do need to learn that it’s important to ask for what you want in this life. No-one’s coming to save you or do everything for you as an adult.

@Georgeandzippyzoo DS's school has 45 kids per year so 1.5 classes per year hence the mixing of year groups. I think in some ways he would have done better in a smaller school like yours. I think, in DS's school, there's not too much academic impact but think there is a social/friendship advantage to being kept in classes that are mostly your own year or 50/50. For DS anyway. I don't blame the school really, it's definitely tricky for them. Sorry, bit of a tangent!

Quite.

If I forgot a child when giving out party bags I'd want them to ask, not go home in a martyrish sulk.

Being quiet isn't the same as lacking assertiveness. You can be quiet with the confidence to speak up when needed.
Assertiveness is taught by modelling it, as well as talking about what they should have done differently when they've not been confident to speak up, so they know for next time. In the case of the sports day, I would say to DD that ideally she would have politely said at the time that there was a mix up and she was in fact third. Given that time has passed, I'd suggest perhaps it is worth speaking to her teacher, explaining what had happened, and that she is sad about it and feels it unfair. I would offer to be there for the chat if DD wanted, but encourage DD to do the talking with only small prompts if she was really struggling. Ultimately the teacher can do little after the event and it isn't some big important thing that has any bearing on her future prospects, but it is teaching DD to speak out when she's been unfairly treated. Hopefully next time she will feel happy to pipe up at the time.

Fuck me. Just tell dd they probably got it wrong and it doesn't matter because you were really proud of her for running so well!

It must be tough being a teacher and having parental expectations that you are going to be an Olympic level timing official.

There’s an expression round here ‘shy bairns get nowt’ Sadly there’s a lot of truth in this.

"The squeaky wheel gets the most grease"