Is my manager being cruel?

[Thistulipisblooming]

I am 34, and work in a public sector. I’ve been in my job over 2 years and I’ve never taken a day off sick (not that it matters if I had)

My grandma has cancer and is now at end of life and coming towards her last days. I don’t have any annual leave to spend with her so I put in a request for special leave (which we get 2/3 weeks full paid). My grandma is also technically my mum, which makes this more complicated. My mum walked out when I was 3 and my grandma took over- I see her as my mum, she is my mum. She raised me.

So I spoke to my manager about this special leave and she said “oh it’s reserved for close living relatives, such as partner, children and mum and dad” so I explained that yes, my grandmother technically is my mum.

and she has refused the leave on the grounds that, as my grandma isn’t biologically my mum that it would be frowned upon as others have had to take it unpaid or on sick for their grandparents.

So now I will have to take it as sick, but unfortunately this is only statutory which won’t go far and she said should I put on your sick leave register now that you’re depressed? As she didn’t know what to put it under as I am not technically sick.

I want to take it to HR possibly but not sure if my emotions are getting the better of me so WIBU to request this leave?

@Maddy70 and @Wasley .. OP has already said that sick leave will be paid at a lower rate and will show as sickness on her record - what she wants is special leave which is full pay for 2 to 3 weeks.

I would prioritise taking the time off to see your grandma however you can do it - as if health care workers have said she's only got a few days left and especially if you have to travel any distance to be with her, you don't want to delay.

BUT, simultaneously, I would speak to HR and explain the situation. Was your grandma your legal guardian or a kinship carer? It might help to speed things up if you could say that. But in any case explain that you were raised by your grandma from the age of 3 and had no contact with your biological mother, so for the purposes of the policy she is your next of kin. They should be understanding - this is what the policy is for.

I'm sorry about your grandmother.

But which part of the public scetor has statutory sick pay only after more than two years in post?

And also sorry, but we (public sector manager here) would also not permit paid time off. Our policies are very specific and unless she was your legal guardian, a grandparent does not qualify for compassionate/ special or bereavement leave, and we have no discretion permitted. Not everywhere may be the same (obviously not because I don't know a single part of the public scetor that doesn't have occupational sick pay unless you are in the first weeks of your employment) but this is how it is for us - it would be annual leave or unpaid leave. And obviously whilst you can take sick leave, that carries with it the risk of triggering sickness absence processes.

Are you sure you don't have any annual leave left. For most of the public sector the leave year is April - March so it would be unusual to have taken the whole of your annual leave by June - are you thinking you must accrue the leave before taking it, because that isn't the case.

I'd email HR and ask if you have this correctly, that you requested special leave for your grandmother who is close to the end, who raised you from age 3, [so your guardian] and this was declined as the relationship was not close enough to warrant it, and you have been advised to take the time as 'sick' even though you aren't sick. I'd ask them to clarify these rules please.

The language you are using is
confusing
she's not "technically" your mum.
Your biological mother is "technically"
your mum.

not confusing in the slightest. This is a commonly used term.

Can you check the policy? In our (public sector) organisation there is no manager discretion, it's a list of people for whom compassionate leave counts (takes into account legal guardians and adoptive parents) and that's final. Even then the leave is only 3 days.
Despite that the managers are all very supportive and most people have lots of time off for circumstances like this, but it has to be sick leave due to stress - there's no other route for it.

My MIL was taken ill on the Thursday and died on the Saturday. I was told I would not be granted any paid leave so I just got signed of sick. There was no way I was leaving my dh to deal with the aftermath by himself.

Your manager is a disgusting person

I'd be starting with what exactly the rules say then write (ie email) the manager in 'more in sorrow than anger' terms asking for some flexibility based on the fact that your GM brought you up. Was this recognised officially in any way, for example by Special Guardianship or similar.

Managers usually have some discretion or if they've any sense they'll create some.

A verbal message that you don't want this to end up as a grievance but may be useful depending on your relationship with the manager..

Are you sure about the lower pay for sick pay? You usually get full pay for at least a month or two from quite early on in your employment.

You'd normally have sufficient annual leave to take unless you've already taken all of your 5/6 weeks of leave allowance already in the last few weeks, which seems unlikely.

In the situation you describe, most managers would authorise compassionate leave anyway if sick or annual leave was not an option.

But in any case, if your manager is being unsympathetic, it's reasonable to talk to your manager's manager or HR.

Your manager seems very poor. I would absolutely sanction this. There is a right way and a wrong day to treat people and your manager appears clueless.

I would try putting it in writing first. Email your manager and saying

"Further to our previous conversation, I wish to formalise my request for 3 weeks sick leave on the basis that my grandmother is at the end stage of a cancer diagnosis and that she falls under the immediate family on the basis that she raised me from the age of three.

I ask that you submit this request to HR in line with our special leave policy"

Find the policy and include quotes of anything relevant.

You shouldn't have to do this but it's more difficult for the manager to dismiss it if in writing.

If that doesn't get you what you need go to HR directly.

Absolutely go to HR. This woman clearly does not understand the policies and to advise you to take sick leave when you are not unwell is appalling for a manager. I would give you compassionate leave under the circumstances. Make your case to HR and tell them she has told you to pretend to be ill! So sorry about your grandma.

Change your wording.

"I was raised in Kinship care by my grandmother and as such she was my foster mother or adoptive mother so I am entitled to this leave as all care experienced people are"

Fuck them.

This is not a smart suggestion. Not only would this be lying to the doctor, but will end up backfiring somehow in future.

OP I agree with other posters that you should be granted compassionate leave in this situation. As they've said, put it to your manager in writing - make it clear that you have no relationship with your biological mother, your grandmother was your guardian and therefore she is your mother.

This.

She sounds awful AND stupid.

I would bet my last £ that your colleagues would understand the special relationship between you and your gran. I certainly would.

This isn't true. I was signed off for months when my DM was unexpectedly admitted to hospital. The circumstances meant that I had to visit daily and take her food three times per day. The GP signed me off without hesitation.

I got compassionate leave for the day we had to get her admitted, then I asked for unpaid leave (NHS) and was granted it, but then a few weeks later the manager got in touch to say that HR had told her that I must be put on sick leave and paid in full.

I think she’s not only cruel but wrong.

Was she your legal guardian?

If so, surely she is therefore a parent? Even if not, I’d use the message above re kinship

I wouldn’t want this down as sickness or being depressed as this is not accurate.

That is uncalled for. If the manager has no discretion (as we don't) then that is not their fault.

Cannot stand this bureaucratic computer says no approach. It depends if going to HR is going to make your life difficult or if you can approach hr with a my manager assumes the guidelines are set in stone, can hr clarify if there is any nuance etc?

Hopefully the OP will be coming back to tell us which part of the public sector this is, because it is clear that a number of us posters here are public sector managers and may be able to better advise based on that information. As I said, having taken all your paid leave by this time in the year and only having statutory sick pay is highly unusual. It may be that the collective experience here, having a better grasp of the actual field of employment, may be able to better advise.

I'm public sector and HR. Managers in my world have discretion and I would advise discretion.

We wouldn't have more than a week available though at full pay without directorate sign off.

I would advise against sick pay due to your absence record.

Could you request a period of unpaid leave, or as an exception to take some holiday from next year's allocation.

I meant to add, I'm sorry you are going through this and about your grannie

1. Check the work policy. Is it open to interpretation (our is and quite flexible in terms of what constitutes the main care giver when growing up).
2. if you want to, go back with the policy and explain how your circumstances fit.
3. (or 2) go to HR. Be open about your relationship and explain the situation.

unfortuantely if your policy is specific and not open to interpretation, it’s not about your manager being cruel but your organisation. And if that’s the case I’d consider my position there if that’s the way it treats staff.

managers can, if they desire, work round these situations positively. If my team. Are ever in this situation we work it out afterwards because it doesn’t matter at that moment and it will get sorted.

I work in private education and our leave is September to August.

it was never anything legal, my mum just upped and left and my grandma took me and my older siblings on as her own. She never formally adopted me or anything- I haven’t seen my biological mum since I was 3. Not a peep.