To wonder if there comes a point where you just have to give up work?

[Bluewatersummer]

I’m hopefully not there yet. But while I wish I could be very feminist about this the fact is DH earns a lot more than me and he always will, his talents lie where money is.

With one child we have managed through a combination of part time, taking turns to take time off when needed, and some good luck as well - haven’t had a lot of sickness to contend with. However, I’m due my second any day now and I’m wondering about a whole host of stuff.

It’s going to be so difficult when DC1 starts school and when DC2 is in nursery, reliance on wraparound care and rushing from A to B to C. I don’t honestly know if it is just easier for everyone - not just me - if one parent gives up work and just has their ‘job’ the children and house. Which isn’t very feminist but would potentially make a big difference to stress levels! Honestly wondering what others think: I’m not making any big decisions just yet.

And personally I don't think a great father is one who perpetuates outdated gender myths to his children and gets awarded a medal for spending time with his own children outside of his very very important job, but again, that's my opinion, not yours.

🤮 "my husband is a man and his job is to provide for us"

What a comment 🤦🏼‍♀️

@Sarahtm35 it is not my husbands job to provide for me, it wasn't his job to do that when we met and it still isn't 12 years later, it is both mine and his roles to provide for our joint children.

I think sex is interchangeable. I wish I was the higher earner and could be an excellent role model, but I’m not. It isn’t about giving up work because I’m a woman, it’s about potentially giving up work because I don’t earn as much.

@Comedycook you can throw money up to a point but the problem is if the nanny leaves or is sick or goes on maternity leave … what then? I don’t think there is watertight childcare unfortunately.

Good lord.

I have never corrected a pp's posting before but this one deserves it.

It's "what were your reasons for wanting them" @SaSarahtm35

Can I ask what your reasons were for posting on this thread?

Look up maternal feminism.

You could well be far more valuable at home than at work.

But you should keep your skills up because things can always change.

I did do a housewife role but kept some work freelance and now things have gone tits up for our relationship I am back at work with good prospects.

Being a SAHM is a full-time job but you can carve our time to gain work experience from home which can save you in future.

The alternative is working for nothing (because it all goes on childcare) so that you have the same prospects.

These are just two ways of achieving the same thing but one means you are with your children more - not everyone wants that but if you do then taking time to be a smart SAHM will give you what you can't ever get back. They are only little for a while, but be smart about it and don't submit everything to the assumption that he will be there to take care of you forever.

I think to an extent, stress is always removed when there is someone around to do the tidying up and food shopping and is the dedicated person in charge of school runs.

But it does mean that the 'stress' of all of that falls on one person, while the other largely just has to worry about getting to work and working and getting home. But if you have two children at home all afternoon, instead of in childcare, you do create a lot more mess and chaos which needs to be dealt with. Children and parents out of the house between 8-5 or whatever versus one parent at home and children at home from 3pm is a big difference (in my experience) in terms of chaos around the house, which someone needs to deal with and if you're home, that's going to be you.

Now you may well enjoy that and be happy and less stressed, but personally I found being at home with children to be more stressful than being at work (which is probably why you don't see men banging down the doors to be SAHPs!), particularly because it can me less free time that is properly 'yours'.

Ultimately, I think that two parents working flexibly and equally supporting the kids practically and emotionally is probably the least stressful solution. Fwiw, I didn't find one in school and one in nursery to be too tricky. Having 2 in school is when it got tricky as shorter days and much more to balance, apart from the financial stress of paying for nursery.

I know this sounds "easier said than done" privileged advice, but my husband and I have both made the calculated choice to maximise earnings with the goal that we'll both drop to 4 days, and increase earnings from investments.

This has meant targeting learning valuable qualifications, and more lucrative jobs, rather than the jobs that are most satisfying. But we both enjoy our work enough to be happier with the balance between flexibility and job satisfaction.

Neither of us value the specifics of our work enough to stick around not earning enough money to live comfortably.

The advice around ensuring some pension contributions in a private plan is really good advice for everyone. It's very expensive to catch this up if you miss 10 years out of the workforce and you will end up working longer. You can use tax relief to boost it, but those I know who didn't bother regretted it years down the line, even when family still all together and only running one household.

That's true...no childcare is watertight. I'd say though I think a nanny is the best option logistically. So in my case, I had a baby who would have needed a nursery or childminder. Another DC in school. That's two locations to get them to. School is 9-3 so you need breakfast and after school club. You need a commute which allows you to get kids to their locations and to work on time. As for school, you have 14 weeks holiday a year. Childcare settings won't take your kids if they're ill. Its a nightmare...hence why I gave up work. Money will give you more choices...so an emergency nanny from an agency if things go wrong. But unless you have money or family support, you're screwed

I chose to slow down career progression by going part time (3, then 4 days pw). Now back up to full time with the kids at school. I wouldn't have wanted to give up, I hate chores and would have resented the household management role that inevitably comes with staying at home. I also want things for myself, care about pension, to feel secure if DH were to get sick or leave.

@mindutopia I’m with you on that. Gap between DC1 and 2 will mean that after my maternity leave there’s only one year of them both at home before DC1 starts school and then DC1 will have some free nursery hours. So there is that.

My ‘worry’ I suppose is that we are all tired and stretched every which way.

Remember op you probably have as much as 30+ years of your working life left after children.

Women who leave the workplace entirely for a few years tend to struggle to return to it, vs those who stay working, even part time or treading water a bit while kids are young. These women are then faced with a skill & experience gap, lack of confidence, partners who are used to not pitching in at home/with kids, and employers reluctance to invest in retraining older staff. People also tend to allow housework and life admin to fill their time quite inefficiently in a way that makes it quite overwhelming to consider adding in work outside the home. These factor combine to form a huge hurdle and lead to women getting stuck in unfulfilling, low paid work, with poor pension provision.

Add in marriage breakdown and the fact that men typically die before women and you have a lot of struggling older women, spousal maintenence is incredibly rare now so there's an expectation that you have the capacity to support yourself financially. Don't give it up lightly.

when did choosing to not go into paid work but to look after the children - the ones that you made a positive choice to have because you wanted them - become non - feminist? I am a feminist. so is my dh. we made a positive choice for one of us to not work to raise the children the way we wanted them to be raised. not to be raised by a succession of randoms who might not have the same views on things as we do. We spent a couple of years with me doing it and then both decided to start our own business so that we could both have the stay at home role. This idea that somehow you are "less" if you choose to devote your time and effort to other human beings is bonkers in my opinion.

@Sarahtm35 you do you. But stop hectoring others.

Comments like yours infuriate me and I'm not sure if it intends to make that type of parent i.e. make me feel terrible.

1. We have no family support so we rely upon childcare for our children so we can work to provide them a roof over their head, food in their stomachs and a good quality life.

1. Why is it my husband should carry on in his career which is substantially more senior to mine with a better salary, continue to work and never worry about relying on someone else and having financial security. Unlike if I stopped working.

1. Why should I have to give up my good career and independence to become a SAHM because I earn less. Very good salary just not like his.

1. Why should I become the financially vulnerable one that if my marriage breaks down I have no financial security but my husband will be perfectly fine.

Our decision isn't a case of making our children miserable in childcare it's about giving them a good quality of life with maintaining financial independence now and into later years.

I have no issues of people taking the SAHM route that's their choice, of course I would love not to have the pressure of work and family and just concentrate on family it seems nice. You choose the right choice for you. In my experience SAHM continue to send children to nurseries when they don't work and still don't return FT when kids at school. That is their choice but please stop telling parents that if their children go to childcare full time they're miserable because I can assure you they're not.

Is it hard to work and maintain a family , absolutely it is, there's a lot to do but not impossible.

Depends on a lot of things really. Your work and how flexible they are. Your wrap around care.

For us, a childminder was the answer. Both kids went to the same one who does pick ups and drop offs at the nearby primary school. In theory I could drop them both off at 7 there and pick them up at the same place. I want to be present at the school gates though, so I do the morning drop off myself which means I don’t start work til 9.30 and my work are fine with me either doing an extra half hour in the evening or taking a shorter lunch.

I did as I was stressed out of my mind and had depression - combining a demanding job with young children was extremely difficult, and something had to give, if I hadn't given up my job I probably wouldn't be here today. I turned it into a career break and just did something else for a couple of years which only earned a fraction of what I'd earned before but meant I could be at home- and retain my sanity.

I’m going to give a different viewpoint for you to think about OP, I never planned on giving up work but during my maternity leave our plans had to change and I gave up work.

I absolutely loved it! (And this is coming from my dream job which I adored by the way , so this was a real surprise to me !)

We had another DC a few years later and once she was full time at Primary I returned to work , and now I work in HR for the NHS (around school hours) and family life is fantastic , and work is also fantastic.
And I wouldn’t trade those early years for any amount of money !

It’s worth mentioning that - our mortgage can be paid for on one salary , and in the event we do spilt I will receive a portion of DHs pension.

Anyway the point I wanted to make was that being a SAHP can be the right choice for some mums (or dads).

This is why part time work was invented. It’s not a binary choice between work full time or not at all.

If it works for you and your family then yes I would.

Sounds like your partner is out of the country and travels a huge amount for work therefore it makes sense for you to need more flexibility.

However if the thought of it makes you unhappy then don't do it and hire a nanny, turn over is much lower, kids get 121 care, majority will also chip in with very basic bits around the house and will look after kids who are poorly (obviously not hospital poorly).

Feminism for me is having choices and the confidence to follow those choices free from fear. It sounds like you have that.

I think the trick is to work part time, so that you are keeping your hand in, but you're not totally frazzled. Time away from the kids is good for you. You get your work clothes on, put your make-up on, have some adult time. You are still making pension contributions, and critically would have no massive gaps on your CV.

In my first marriage, my then H suggested that I give up work. We could have afforded this, but I chose to keep working in a professional environment, just 15 hours a week, gradually working my way back up to full time, as the children grew. Thank goodness I did, because years later we divorced (due to his cheating) and I had that job to keep me going.

I think this was meant to be biting and sarcastic and I don’t know why.

I realise part time work has many advantages but it also brings many problems with it. If I only work three days a week but DC throws up on Monday, it looks worse in a way taking the whole of my working week off (Monday - Wednesday) than it would if I was in all week.

It is less money (obviously) and less paid into a pension.

It can make life difficult when you’re actually in work - missing things, deadline is Friday but I have to get it done by Wednesday as am not here Friday. That sort of thing.

If I continue with PT work, I still have to navigate wraparound care and pick ups and drop offs and childhood illnesses for three days a week PLUS actually work!

You seem to be equating the role of ‘provider’ with being male. That is your own gender essentialism talking. I am my child’s mother and I ‘provide’ for him too, as does my DH, just as we both parent him and love him equally.

I think it’s deeply bizarre that you talk about how your DH didn’t ‘put pressure on you to work’, as if he was doing you a favour? What about whether he enabled you to continue your career, by either taking a step back in his own or working flexibly to do half of pick ups and drop offs or to stay at home some days, or to cover sickness? Or wouldn’t he have facilitated you continuing to work, to the possible detriment of his own career?

A lot of people on MN talk about an ideal where both parents work near full-time, sharing the responsibility for pick up and drop off equally. But in the real world this doesn't work for the vast majority of people. Main reasons being:
-Many people are required to travel for work which means they then cannot pick up or drop off
-Kids get ill very frequently
-Few kids are happy to spend most of the school holidays in holiday camps, and even if they are, its very expensive and difficult to find places.

-Most well paid jobs, as well as many lower paid jobs, don't fit within nursery or school wrap around care hours, particularly if you are commuting for an hour or more.

I can think of perhaps three families I know where both parents work near full time. Two have only one child, the other has parents helping out most days to ferry to and from school.