To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

I don’t think many people understand how lonely, isolated and sad many parents of ND children feel. They are excluded all the time and they know their child is different, they know that it’s highly likely they’re going to be a forever parent.
My best friend has 2 ND dc’s. Yes, it’s tough for us when we go out or on holiday, but, believe me living it everyday is even harder. Myself and DH take her boys out each week for a few hours so she gets a break and we have explained to our own DCs that they need to show more kindness and patience with those boys and to always include them in everything. Have you spoken to the other children in the friendship group?
If you are the good friend you claim to be invite them. Don’t isolate them further.

I don't think it's unreasonable not to invite them, but I also don't think you can perhaps have the same friendship afterwards.

Would she actually want to come? Or would she realise it would probably be quite stressful / risky with her DSs behaviour?

He's injured some of the other invited children before - I wouldn't want to holiday with someone who'd injured my DC and has the potential to do it again.

I also wouldn't spend thousands of pounds to not have a relaxing holiday tbh!

'Ableist bullshit?'
Not all SEN is created equal. Not everyone has enough money for multiple holidays where they can spend one doing free babysitting.
OP's line about parenting strategies is silly. But saying 'SEN' is meaningless without specifying what they are.

Violence, pushing, shoving, meltdowns is very different from misophonia, retreating and just refusing to do stuff, etc.

I don't think it's a question of 'excluding' the friend, but everyone else not wanting to go. Expectations have to be set - i.e. if this kid comes along at least one adult has to be on watch all the time. Whoever isn't ok with that just drop out.

If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent

Properly made me laugh that. We're all experts before and all that....

maybe a holiday with no kids at all. Ultimately, if you exclude her. She might understand, I know I would understand, but it would hurt a lot and I would pull back from the group in her shoes.

My son was exactly like this at 10. He was diagnosed asd at 11. I was having an incredibly hard time with him as a single parent. I'd have been devastated if my friend had written this post.
I guess you need to decide what's most important. A holiday where the kids need to be supervised a bit more than if the were all NT, no holiday at all, or the holiday you'd like and a devastated friend. Your friend didn't make her child autistic, it could just as easily have been YOUR child. If she means anything to you you'll all rally round and help her.

If you never want her to talk to you again, do it. You have no idea how to parent her child, so your suggestions are out of order. Lets hope one of your children never has a brain injury…

If he's better behaved for other adults, and happy to go off with another adult on his own then for a seven day trip you could agree (for example) that one person will head off for a walk/to play board games/to read quietly with him every morning, then he'll have a couple of hours with the others (supervised by someone else) in the afternoon, then the rest of the day is her problem, plus e.g. 2 full days on top. She gets a break, no one else has to do more than half a day's worth of supervision, hopefully he's not over stimulated.

Yes, we did this with the kids in our group, but they were used to being with all the adults in the group.

You need to have an honest conversation with her. If you want her to be with you on holiday you need to choose a holiday that will work for her. You can suggest the villa/pool idea but say you're aware it might be a difficult environment for her son. Ask what you can do/other options can be considered for her to be able to come too?

You'd be a very poor friend to exclude her, and I echo a PP poster about not judging her parenting as with the best intentions you have no idea what it's like to parent a SEN child.

Hopefully you can find a solution

I do think it depends on the situation though.
If these people have plenty of money, go on multiple holidays etc then spending ONE helping their friend out isn't a big deal.
However if this is their only/main holiday, and they're going to shell out thousands of pounds it's not unreasonable to want a proper break. Again, as there are lots of them so they can take turns, but it ONLY works if every single adult does their share.
Otherwise a few (usually women!) will end up as the default babysitters and not get anything out of the holiday they paid for.

It's an all or nothing scenario. Or, as I said, go away with the willing few alone.

Personally I would just scrap the idea of a big group holiday for two reasons:

1 - I couldn't exclude a good friend but
2 - I wouldn't want to go on a holiday which already has the potential to be a nightmare. Maybe the child will be fine or maybe he won't, another child gets hurt and the parent of hurt child gets v cross and then all hell breaks loose.

I think invite her because she is already somewhat unsupported by the father/her family, so being excluded or feeling unsupported by close friends would make her feel worse. Maybe tell her "we're thinking it would be great to book a group holiday so us adults can relax a little and children can have a bit of carefree fun, What do you think? This is the location and the dynamic of the country and activities etc Would it be manageable for 'child X'?"

Maybe just asking her opinion with regards to her child and sending her a Google link of the facilities available on the holiday will get her thinking about the reality of how 'child X' would cope.

I would presume I have enough awareness that if my child's behaviour had that much effect on others I would not go on the holiday and ruin it for others, it is up to me to discipline and care for my child no one else.

I agree. I hate the shpiel some people on here post about parenting SEN kids. It's like reading some cheesy quote from quarterly zoom meeting for parents, ran by our LEA SEND services. For a lot of SEN parents, widening out and making friends with other SEN parents helps a lot as they can relate and generally the activities organised are based around their kids specific needs so this sort of situation is avoided.

Well by the sounds of it, one of the children could've easily had a brain injury caused by this child.

What a load of bollocks this is!!!! The OP is trying to find a solution that benefits everyone! Your dd is no one else's responsibility to deal with but your own and so is OP's friends dc! I have a child with ASD and ADHD among other diagnoses and i can completely understand where op is coming from! Parents with SEN dc often don't realise what hard work their dc are to be around because they are used to it!

Also this thread is super hilarious!
There was a previous one about someone not wanting to be friends with wealthy people because all they did was discuss expensive vacations... people told her not to be silly, they weren't 'excluding' her by discussing things she couldn't afford.
This, however, is the other way around.
MN is so strange

You would think so. Many are happy to turn a blind eye. Yanbu op, everyone being on edge for one child. Nope. Especially as he has injured someone before.

I agree completely.

It's a really, really tricky situation and I empathise with you.

I would either tell her it has been planned and explain the safety reasons involved (including a holiday should be a holiday (even with kids) and you don't want to be unnecessarily worrying) and say you're not sure if it's the right setting for him given past incidents OR go ahead and invite them but with the knowledge that others may drop out and there may need to be some sort of rota of watching the kids with a close, physical presence.

I do really empathise with the Mum as a parent as my eldest has a diagnosis, however she has never, ever hurt or threatened to hurt another child and is more likely to walk away crying than lash out. But even that can be tricky for other children to understand. I wouldn't go on this type of holiday with a child who can be aggressive unless I was willing to be on top of him 100% of the time, it's not fair on others as much as she needs a break too.

This makes me really sad. Sad because I totally get that you all want a relaxing holiday and wouldn't grudge you that but also very sad because I am the other mum, with a neurodiverse child.

I don't know what the answer is. If this was me, the rational part of me would understand why I wasn't invited but the "me" part of me would be incredibly hurt. It's isolating enough being a parent to a kid with additional needs but feeling like your friends don't want to be with the person you love the most really hurts
the heart.

Being disabled means sometimes activities/events/whatever aren't suitable for us and can't feasibly be made suitable. We can screech about ableism, demand to be included, and make sure everybody has a miserable time, or we can accept the world doesn't revolve around us and let our friends go and have fun.

Personally I wouldn't want to be friends with somebody in the former group anyway.

You haven’t been roasted more because many people are ableist and think it’s fine to exclude people with disabilities if it would inconvenience them in any way. Dress it up how you like but your posts sound quite judgemental of her parenting skills. This poor friend has to cope on her own with largely no support by the sounds of it, you say the child does have good qualities and is ok with adults. Couldn’t the other 10 adults who are in partnerships and don’t have disabled children help her out a bit? The children really should be having some supervision anyway

I just keep thinking of the opposing AIBU

My friends excluded me due to my DS

There have been such posts before and the Mum is always crushed and devastated

On the flipside I totally relate to your argument.

Boils down to whether you want to lose her as a friend

I'm afraid I wouldn't forgive in her position

This is so spot on! You honestly have no idea.

I'd do as previous poster have suggested and have lodges or separate accommodation for each family. At the best of times it can be good for people to have their own space.

Perhaps doing an activities based holiday (at least for the kids) would work. Or somewhere where there is a kids club where the other DC could go and give you some adult time with him kept with you?

I'd look at having a fairly robust plan as to how you all manage the lad. Perhaps an adult taking him and maybe one other child off for an activity every day. Rotating adults and children as needs be.

If you have a solid plan of how the week is going to go. What activities you are doing when. And schedule it all out for him so he knows what to expect and have as little unstructured time for him as possible. Plus having really really clear expectations as to what you are expecting of him.

With that number of adults you should be able to manage his needs. If one family are worried about their DC then you need to discuss with them what steps it would take to make them feel more comfortable that doesn't involve him being excluded from the holiday.