To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

This is what I think would work. I am a single mum of a similar child and I wouldn't want to be friends with the OP anymore if they all went and didn't invite us. However, I do parent like OP says and watch him constantly and draw him away for breaks in busy situations. Things still crop up though. I'd never share a villa with other families because ds needs some space to retreat to where no-one else can get to him. If hotel rooms around a pool would work, the OP could remove her family and go on a day trip. When I've been on holiday with another family, I've always been upfront about not spending every hour/day with the others. It has worked well I think and most of all, I still have lovely friends.

If you rent something like a group of gites or cottages with a communal pool and playground so you can not spend every minute together. Then if it gets too much you can go inside for a rest! A house together gives nobody any respite or privacy really

I have two DS with SEN and we could never stay in a big villa type place as it wouldn't be fair on my kids or anyone else! When we go away with family or friends we always book somewhere with little cabins, separate places or whatnot that are close together, giving everyone their own space.

We’ve gone away with friends most years since before our children were born. As some of us started to have children, they joined us on the holidays. 4 out of the kids in our group have autism and/or adhd. For us, we’ve never thought of excluding anyone based on that.

We’ve dealt with issues that have come up, we’re a close group of friends and are all like second parents to each other’s children. That helps because we all feel confident to step in with any arguments or behaviour issues. I think if anyone would have been excluded from the holidays due to their children, it would have impacted the friendships, so for us that wasn’t something we would want to risk.

It’s a tough one because obviously you want to relax and you don’t want other children being hurt, but friendships are important. I can only say what we did.

Maybe the idea of separate accommodation is best and then you’re guaranteed to get time to yourselves.

I sympathise 100%, but if I were you I would be unable to have a relaxing and fun holiday if she weren't included because I would feel so bad and be worrying about the impact the exclusion was having on her. I think I would have to vote to include her because of the hurtfulness of leaving a family out for this particular reason (or any reason, actually).

OP this is a tough one.

I am the parent of a sen child and I understand where you are coming from -my son needed a lot more supervision than other children his age, he wasn’t badly behaved or violent, he just was much younger mentally and also had no awareness of danger etc , so when my friends with children were starting to find they could allow a bit less supervision I couldn’t , and it changes the dynamic.

But, as much as your friend will know where you are coming from (trust me she will be keenly aware of it!) it will also hurt her like hell, it’s human nature, and even with the best will in the world you may find that your friendship never really recovers, and I don’t think that either of you would be ‘to blame’ , it’s just the circumstances.

She has two kids and no childcare 😂 I agree that the boy coming just isn’t an option if he hurts others, but it’s going to come across so patronising and out of touch to say ‘you’re welcome to come, just leave your young kids home alone because you need some alone time with your friends.’

Me too

New friends? If its so easy for SEN Parents to find new friends who will tolerate this behaviour then why are so many here saying its isolating? Where are they? Is there a directory?

The plain and simple fact is her DC will disrupt the holiday and upset everyone especially the other DC

She has to accept that this is not what people want on their holidays

It's a difficult conversation

No one should fall out over this but of course feelings will get hurt

That should not mean a whole holiday should be ruined for a large group of people because of one DC

@neverbeenskiing Totally agree, lost me at that bit too.

OP, You never know what you’d do or what does/doesn’t work unless you have a child with SEN yourself. You can (and do) pour every ounce of your soul into parenting your child and still have an absolute day from hell probably followed by very minimal sleep to be woken at 4am for the day to start all over again.

Whichever way you look at it, you’re excluding her family because she has a disabled child. Of course his mother will be hurt. She’ll face the same judgement and isolation everyday, whether it’s out shopping and a meltdown happens or maybe battling for his right to an education with the barriers that SEN contributes to that. It can be an incredibly isolating and lonely parenting journey.

I understand you want a wonderful holiday, I really do. I guess it just depends how much you value your friendship.

My two elder children are disabled, I have the most wonderful best friend who cares for them as I do. We spend a lot of time together and she is all in with helping me with their care, she is a diamond. Our family members couldn’t give a shit, I am so thankful for her.

I feel like so many people aren’t reading the whole thread and have missed where OP says the child is physically violent, has pushed a child who is going off a climbing frame, throws things at the other children, and can’t be left alone due to his behaviour

Also this. When you have a child like this, you acknowledge there are just some things you can't take part in. I would have a realistic conversation with this friend, and explain the situation.
However OP, as you are, I imagine, her friendship group and her support network, I think you need to rethink this idea and think of an option that would be more inclusive of her situation as this may come across as you planning something, knowing they wouldn't be able to come.

This. It's so shit for your friend but the safety of the majority has to take precedence. Either that or no one goes.

Is it possible to go to the same place without all staying together? So you all get a break from each other and can meet up in smaller groups too?

I think this is a good option.

Our oldest (8) is autistic, says very few words, sensitive to sound and holidays are stressful when the accommodations are booked by someone else because they usually don’t consider the extra precautions we have to take before booking. Our son is an escape artist and loves to roam and be outside. He will unlock a door, climb a fence and out of an open window or open a window and go out of it if he sees an opportunity. It is being on constant alert and supervision until he goes to sleep in accommodations that we don’t chose ourselves despite his difficulties being known by those close to us. He is quiet and usually well-behaved so it is easy for them to forget the other things.

We stay in hotels with sealed windows and with chain latches on the doors so we (mainly me) can hear him if he tries to leave the hotel room without us which he has tried in the past.

Yes all this

It's different to not inviting her to the local park

It's a holiday which you're paying for plus other DC are clearly at risk

I think some of these replies are really harsh.

OP sounds like a kind friend who helps out, but it seems like most of you missed the part where she mentioned he can be aggressive and hurt another child before. I don't think anyone would be okay with their child being physically hurt. She also mentioned in the OP he regularly throw things at people and might not deal well within a large group.

Either way, it's an impossible situation. I really feel for your friend and if she is not invited it will affect your friendship. Or you can invite her and if he is not supervised properly you risk one of the other children being hurt again.

I don't think there is any solution that will work for everyone.

That environment would be too much for him. I'd kick off with that amount of stimulation, change in routine and no amount of tools learnt over many years help as the time is too long.

You'd be better having a short break somewhere with lots of off-time.

Why don't you actually ask her what's best? If she kicks off, then at least it's out in the open, sneaking off on holiday would be horrible. I'm from a family left out of stuff and it sucks.

And yes, I did spend all my time with the adults when I was a kid. It's just easier than dealing with other kids.

Could you have an honest discussion with her, and politely explain what you have explained on this thread? You could have a discussion with the others in advance.

If he's better behaved for other adults, and happy to go off with another adult on his own then for a seven day trip you could agree (for example) that one person will head off for a walk/to play board games/to read quietly with him every morning, then he'll have a couple of hours with the others (supervised by someone else) in the afternoon, then the rest of the day is her problem, plus e.g. 2 full days on top. She gets a break, no one else has to do more than half a day's worth of supervision, hopefully he's not over stimulated.

I know you said you can't have a conversation about her parenting but I'd be pretty tempted to have an up front convo - given the alternative is she is left out and loses her friendship group, and that added to it it's a different situation from his normal life and therefore more appropriate that one might need to negotiate in advance.

You could start with it as a discussion for her ideas so you could work out how to make it work - she might even have some ideas you haven't thought of?

If you dont want her to come I think you either have to accept you may lose her or hurt her feeling or invite her last minute and frame it as a spontaneous last minute thing you have decided to throw together so there isnt feasibly time for her to organise coming.

Realistically, your focus needs to be on what your kids will enjoy.

Poor you OP - I can’t imagine anything worse than having such an awful decision to make… except perhaps knowing you’re excluded from your close friends group family holidays because your disabled child is not acceptably behaved and too much work for the other 10+ adults to cope with when they’re meant to be relaxing.

How long are you planning to go for, two weeks?
I think I would box clever and present the holiday as 'I have booked blah-blah and would love for all or any of you to come out for a few days or a week or so, if you fancy chipping in with the cost of villa, let me know asap as my sis/aunt/workmate wants to come for a few days and needs to book leave'.
That way, paths may cross but not for the entire holiday. No offence is caused when it's only possible to stay for a week as aunt is coming (and later drops out) but everyone gets a break (and I hope you will give your dfriend a break during their few days!)
Someone has to be the lead name on the booking, may as well be you!

Oh and please don’t tell her why it would be too difficult for you all to cope with her child or try to explain how she could parent a disabled child you have no experience of living with 24/7/365.

Genuinely some SEN parents I've met through support groups have a very self centered view of their situation. I think the fight for any support and help drains them so much they end up feeling extremely sorry for themselves and become really quite crap friends. They expect everyone to bend over backwards to include them, criticise family members and friends, without themselves organising something that will work for their child and inviting others. The excuse I always hear is I don't have time as my child has SEN. People with NT also don't have time. There doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement from them that actually being friends with someone who has a child like the one OP is describing, is really not that easy and with the best intentions, it doesn't always work out. I have a SEN child, I promise I get it, but there does seem to be a lack of self reflection from some in the SEN community.