To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

I stand by what I said - she is minimising the potential risk to other children, and putting this friend above the couple whose daughter was hurt.
PP have expressed this more eloquently than me if you go back to previous posts.

Yeah, this is a better solution.,..

To add to my earlier post and my experience is that most parents on sen dc will be the ones to manage them and supervise them. As I said my dc dies not display these challenging behaviours but if she did and any extra care of supervision she does need is my problem and up to me to do. I wouldn’t dream of sitting back and expecting others to deal with care or unwanted behaviour. That is my dc and my responsibility. It is selfish if op friend to do this to her friends. I get she is probably exhausted and needs a break but she is being very unkind to her dc and her friends group. regardless of nd or anything else it sounds like some of this boys behaviour is down to passive parenting. I would not tolerate spending time with someone who can’t be bothered to parent their dc and expects others to step in. That would be more reason not to invite her than the actual behaviour.

I would invite her though and as I said I wouldn’t mind helping with dc who genuinely have additional needs but in this situation I would expect the parent to be doing the care and supervision and if she knows he is likely to hurt anyone then she needs to be on top of him all the time. If she fails to do this and he is hurting others or making threats then I’d have no problem having a conversation with her clearly stating that she needs to supervise ds as he is hurting the other dc and we will not continue to tolerate that. I’m sure she would anyway because I find it hard to believe that a parent will just sit back while her dc hurt others, if this is honestly what she does then she is not a person I would consider a friend.

Op surly you can invite her knowing she will look after her dc. If not then she is not your friend anyway she is a cf.

Yeah, but she didn’t say this particular kid, she made a general statement. I’m just pointing out that as a general statement it’s untrue.

Yes, if a hypothetical child didn’t know that shoving someone off a climbing frame hurt that child then it wouldn’t be assault as such. However, it would then be the parent’s fault as they had left a child with no understanding of others in a very unsafe position. Either way it’s of course not acceptable!

Actually, compared to most of the other SEN parents on here who are isolated, excluded with no help. OP's friend is extremely lucky indeed!
OP has babysat, one of the other couples 'has him loads'. Friend does get a break seeing as she 'gladly steps away'. All OP's words.
They have play dates and get togethers...

It's just this holiday.

The thing is, parents of ND kids go through all these life stresses AND have a ND child to care for at the same time.

I agree caring for him on a rota is daft though… apart from anything, poor kid knowing he is such a burden people have to draw straws for the job of being with him!

No it isn’t acceptable, and this mum may well not be supervising this kid properly but it’s irritating that so many posters presume that all ND kids are prone to this type of thing and have parents who think it’s okay, and the NT kids don’t do it (largely because they are better parents).

It’s a false and depressing assumption

That sounds great in theory, but that theory taken to it's logical conclusion; mumsnet wouldn't really exist. Or least Relationships/AIBU wouldn't exist because so many women post on here about problems with their husband that they're too afraid to talk to their husband about. Also MILs. Parents. And, yes, friends. So unless we're saying your spouse, mother/father, MIL etc aren't your friends, your sentence makes sense in theory but not in practice.

I have read all the replies but this would be my idea...

You could invite her but tell her the price is far higher than it is. She will probably decline the invite due to cost and you've got the no you wanted. I'd also sell it as we're going to relax, etc. Maybe she will realise it's not suitable as a destination for her eldest and decline?

It's not exactly ethical but it solves both issues, unless of course she is loaded in which case this isn't going to help as she will probably say yes. If she does say yes, obviously don't overcharge her! Just say you calculated wrong and you're so glad she can come.

@AscensionToCheese she is lucky compared to some people with sen dc yes.

She is very cheeky to expect her friends to deal with challenging behaviour because it’s easier for her. She is not being a good friend to the op or the other people in the group. I’d be absolutely mortified if my dc hurt my friends dc and I would make damn sure I was on my feet at every meeting to prevent it happening again. Does she not care about the op dc or other dc in the group? Does she not consider the feelings of her friends? If that’s true it’s no wonder people want to exclude her. If she was actively doing everything to prevent others getting hurt or threatened then there would be no problem and this thread wouldn’t exist. If there was the occasional incident but she dealt with it and stepped up I’m sure the group would be more understanding and not even questioning inviting them but evidently the problem lies because she decides not to parent her dc.

It's not exactly ethical but it solves both issues, unless of course she is loaded in which case this isn't going to help as she will probably say yes.

If she was loaded, wouldn’t she be able to not only get a diagnosis of sorts for him without likely having to deal with the 2 year wait and hire someone to help her with him?

Agree. You can’t go through with the idea because it means leaving your friend and her son out which would be really upsetting. I don’t think I could forgive that myself. Unless you are relaxed about hurting her and her son deeply and losing the friendship- you need to rethink. The idea isn’t compatible with the dynamics in your group. Just book in smaller apartments or just go on holiday where you can have the odd meet up. Staying together will be difficult with so many I’d imagine and the wants and needs, the frustrations.

I would decline OP - given that you had the conversation with me. I would appreciate that you had the fortitude to actually discuss it with me.

If you choose to keep the woman in the dark about this holiday, well only you know your friend on here - we don't. I would personally end friendships over not being told. Perhaps your friend would feel differently.

I don't think the group as a whole are being totally unreasonable in respect of this particular child .

Fwiw though, my DD who is disabled in a similar way, went abroad with cousins (all NT) for the first time in May.

She was never a problem - THEY were. You and your friends will probably find they won't get much of a holiday in, regardless.

No, they aren’t my friends. They are my parents or in-laws. They are who they are (and as it happens we get on well) but I didn’t choose them.

My wife and my friends I chose- why would I choose people I was afraid to talk to about things?! Sure some conversations are hard, but there is nothing I would be afraid to talk to them about for fear of their reaction… if I found myself thinking ‘I can’t talk to X about this because she might be angry/upset/flip out and I’m scared’, I would end the relationship there!

5 families colluding to straight out lie to her face. That's not only unethical, it's deeply unpleasant. This is not what friends do to each other.

So, since a rota is daft, do you have a better solution? Share your wisdom, oh wise one.
Or should they tell friend that it's entirely her job, which defeats the purpose of the holiday?

They don’t want to supervise the child, they don’t want him on the holiday so in this situation with this group of people it won’t work. It would just mean the boy spent days out of a holiday being looked after by someone who didn’t want him there and didn’t want to be dealing with him. It would be awful for him!

And you wouldn’t approach it as a rota for babysitting this one child. As far as he and the other children are concerned, it’s just a parent keeping an eye on the younger kids.

They wouldn’t need to tell the children about the rota- these are people who don’t want him there, it will show in their behaviour towards him.

Don’t go straight for the cabin option.

I’d moot it as a possible idea rather than a definite plan, “a few of us have been discussing doing a villa type holiday. We are just seeing who would be interested. Would that be something you feel that x would be able to cope with and would you want to come if we do it?”

Then if she says no, you can go ahead without any worry. If she says she would be interested you can re evaluate and either the idea can wither completely away or you can then visit the cabin option.

this is a really hard one, I understand where you are coming from but I think you’re friend will be so hurt. However you, your children and your friends with their families are not nasty for wanting a relaxing holiday

I do however think YABU to say “If he were my child I would…” he is not your child, this is not helpful and as much as you may feel you know what you would do, you are not in that position. Imagine if your friend were reading that how judged she would feel

If mum never gets a break, it’s DAD’s fault. -- fitzwilliamdarcy

Absolutely right.

First rule of misogyny: women are responsible for what men (don't) do.

No one wants them [SEND children]. They hate themselves as well because they know no one wants them. -- DailySnooze

Can confirm. Even without the stigma of a diagnostic label, I was the "weirdo" that few, if any, kids want to be around. Bullying, even sexual assault. Autistic girls are so vulnerable to sexual abuse and assault because we can't "read" other people to detect a predator before they strike. It's lonely and terrifying when the only people who want you around are sexual predators. I couldn't figure out why people didn't want me unless it was to hurt me. I blamed myself. If my suicide attempt had gone to plan, I wouldn't have seen my sixteenth birthday. (Source: I am a SEND adult (autism).)

If the OP has posted that her friend had a son who is epileptic and would need close supervision in the pool to keep him safe, but one family didn't want him to come behave he'd once had a seizure and kicked their daughter, I wonder if there would be more sympathy for both child and parent. -- DysmalRadius

Quite. For starters, no one would even dream of accusing the child of being naughty nor the parent of bad parenting. No one would suggest that the seizures could be avoided by "consequences" or "boundaries". There would be a recognition that triggers needed to be avoided and that some activities aren't suitable for the child. The practicalities would still be discussed, but without the subtext that the parent isn't trying hard enough.

It's not an unfair comparison at all: ADHD, autism, and epilepsy are all neurological conditions.

It's still not in any way reasonable of me to expect my able-bodied friends to spend their money and annual leave on a holiday that fits within the very narrow boundaries of my physical abilities. -- ItsNotRocketSalad

If there's a whole friendship group, and they do things together as a group of friends, it's not very friendly for them to decide to omit one friend from what would otherwise be a full group because that person's disabilities are inconvenient. They can go hiking or what-have-you outside of the friendship group to use their annual leave. A "second year housemates do the Catskills" holiday isn't the same as a "second year housemates, apart from Eric 'cos he's in a wheelchair, do the Catskills" holiday.

I don't believe it's SEN, and he's not even diagnosed with anything per OP -- FelisCatus0

A child isn't put on the referral pathway for no reason. It took a suicide attempt for me to get a CAMHS referral, and then there was a waiting list of around six months, which is just what a suicidal child in her GCSE exam year needs 😒 I'm reliably informed that waiting lists for CAMHS have got longer since then.

I was diagnosed autistic in my forties. Does that mean that I wasn't autistic before that? Would it have been reasonable for someone to say of me and my behaviour "I don't believe it's SEN, and she's not even diagnosed with anything"?

the genuinely most sad reality here is that a complete discussion in a large group of "friends" has occurred along with this thread, all while this parent is in the dark. -- DoubleShotEspresso

Hear hear. The "friends" are discussing decisions behind her back when she should be involved. They've made a clique within the friendship group and she's not in it. In their eyes, she and her son are burdens.

His father doesn't want him. His mother's friends don't want him. And there will be far more people who don't want him. My heart goes out to the poor boy.

This seems like the best idea to me. I go away with family a lot and even without ASN kids it works better for everyone to have their own space.