To not invite friend because of SEN child

[GameOverBoys]

I know I’m going to get roasted here so I will try to give all the information.
Myself and a few friends have been discussing getting a villa for a holiday next summer. There are 5 families all with children aged 6 to 13. We all went to uni together with another friend who has two boys. Her eldest (10 years old) is on the pathway and I feel fairly confident that he is neuro-diverse. Maybe autism or ADHD but has traits of both. So far, we haven’t invited her but now we are looking for villas we need to make a decision if we are going to or not. She is a lovely, sweet woman and we would have no question if it wasn’t for the impact on the group that her eldest has. He is not safe to be left unsupervised with the other kids. In the past there has been constant issues ranging from rough play, making threats and impulsive unsafe actions to punching and throwing things at the others.
He’s very bright, articulate and thoughtful boy and thrives on adult interaction. Away from other kids, I enjoy spending time with him a lot.
During play dates and get togethers we tend to take it in turns to supervise the kids and he is generally much better behaved when watched and any major danger can be stopped. It’s also easy to spot triggers like competitive games. He is also better when there are fewer kids. If we go to a villa (with a swimming pool) supervising him will be impossible and we want to have a break and just let the kids have a bit of freedom. The other children are all old enough and sensible enough to listen to instructions, such as you can’t go to the pool area.
His mother does her best but when she supervises him his behaviour is much worse for her. Her youngest is well behaved so I don’t feel it’s particularly bad parenting, just a stressed out single parent with few resources left to deal with a very hard to parent child. She also has a physical disability which can sometimes stop her being able to intervene. If he was my child I would take him for regular breaks, providing calming strategies, give clear boundaries and follow through but he isn’t and I can tell her how to parent.
I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant. The group get on so well when he’s not there. There is no need to get involved, other than the occasional requests for food etc and it’s really relaxing. When he is there it is drama the entire time. I think he just doesn’t have the social skills to mix in a big group and he get’s overstimulated. However, I know my friend would be devastated if she thought they were being excluded.

YABU - You are being unreasonable to exclude someone because of SEN

YANBU - You are not being unreasonable to want a relaxing holiday and only invite who you want to

No one is talking about pressing charges though are they?

Maybe the parents of the girl don't want to have to hold her hand all day so she doesn't get hurt.

Look, I think you sound in an awful predicament, this has become an ND vs NT debate so you'll never get a response that is just supportive, and actually I think MN had more ND because these parents are needing more support so actually the bias is likely to be towards ND being something you should support.

Honestly, best action is none go, or all go, or seperate living quarters (but even then, what's to stop her being with everyone the whole time and not utilising her space). It's so awkward but I respect that you sound like a bloody good friend doing what you can. That doesn't mean that you and your other friends don't deserve a relaxing holiday. This child isn't yours and is not your problem. If you have one holiday a year, make it a holiday for you, not everyone else x

@FelisCatus0 No one’s callously playing down the injury to the poor girl who got shoved off the climbing frame. But context is important - it’s not the same situation as a child intentionally hurting another child, and his behaviour is not the result of bad parenting.
I’m interested to know why you’re calling me and others who are sympathetic to the mother and her son heartless, selfish and entitled. You have no idea of our circumstances or what we would
do in the mother’s situation.

As a step parent of an ADHD child, we are so lucky that, despite his energy and everything that comes with, we can manage him. He is overwhelming and he does need boundaries setting and resetting frequently. It isn't easy, but honestly I thank my lucky stars reading MN and realising how easy he is by comparison to what I read. Extra big hug for littlest SS tonight.

@SomethingNastyInTheGenePool Have a look on the things you've said and it's a disinterested 'boys will be boys' type thing, even saying it's wasn't assault, and added that your child is equally disinterested and hasn't learned to pay attention to what is going on around him or care about anyone else. Your posts are extremely telling, especially this one: Assaulted? Really? If this child is anything like my DD, he would have been completely focused on getting to the top of the climbing frame and barely even registered the little
girl.

That says it all. Attempt to suggest it wasn't assault (though OP said he shoved her, and he hits, pushes and threatens), so therefore doesn't matter.

Your whole post was thoroughly distasteful and self-absorbed and completely oblivious to the affect on the girl. To even suggest it wasn't assault and downplay a boy shoving a girl? I wanted to say more to the original as to how disgusted I really was with your attitude, but fear I would be banned...

I said by legal terms shoving someone is considered a form of assault. I didn’t clarify the bit about age which I apologise.

Someone further down the thread said he had assaulted her and another poster wrote in response questioning the use of the word, responding he likely didn’t do it on purpose despite what OP wrote about his behaviour.

@SomethingNastyInTheGenePool I forgot to add this and posted too quickly ; shoving IS intentionally hurting someone. It is the opposite of accidentally bumping them.

Two, it is very obvious from what OP has said that this most definitely is the result of bad parenting. She doesn't even watch her own son or respond to him.

@FelisCatus0 Boys will be boys? Seriously? How the actual fuck did you get that from my post?
The point I was trying to make was that his actions probably weren’t malicious, which is what some posters seemed to be suggesting.
You clearly have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about this topic, as you’re imputing all sorts of motives to my posts.

And no, shoving isn’t necessarily
intentionally hurting someone. It can also be removing an obstacle from your path.

@SomethingNastyInTheGenePool You clearly don't understand how you come across, because that is truly the attitude you give.

He shoved her. That, is malicious! What, you think he was being nice? smh

I think this is one of those situations where you just have to do the right thing. It's going to mean a crappier holiday for all the rest of you but I think you've got to just suck it up and be kind.

Most people's lives are like a non-stop holiday compared to a lot of special needs parents' lives. Be a friend, invite her, spend time supervising and engaging with the child on the holiday. Don't worry about the other children - it will be a lesson for them in how to be kind and tolerant (a much better lesson than the one you would be teaching them if you exclude this child and your friend).

OK, you obviously haven’t got a clue about autism, so let’s just drop it.

So now the girl was an OBSTACLE in his path? You sound more disgusting and lacking in any compassion or idea the more you post.

If an adult male came along, and shoved you out of the path, would you think he was just "removing an obstacle"?

Listen to yourself.

Obstacle???

He doesn't have autism. He isn't even diagnosed. He may have ADHD by the sounds of it.

But autism (nor ADHD) is NOT an excuse, and it's clear you think it is.

I still can't get over you saying a girl, a human being, is an 'obstacle'. The more you post, the worse and worse you come across.

”I don’t think she realises how bad it is because this has always been her situation, but it’s constant.”

believe me she realises. And your list of things you’d do if he was your son!?! Jog on love. He’s not and you’ve no idea what her day to
day life is like.

she’ll feel isolated enough as it is without you planning your relaxing holiday without her.

Why shouldn’t the worry about the other children? Does their enjoyment of the holiday not matter? Is it acceptable for them to shoved, threatened and injured?

People always say that it’s a lesson in kindness and tolerance, yet equally it can be a lesson in simmering resentment, and even ensure out and our dislike of the person well intentioned parents are encouraging tolerance of.

No, but they are the ones who are more against. I think they would probably be persuaded by the group consensus

@FelisCatus0 You’ve missed my point by a mile, unsurprisingly.
So let me spell it out. I wasn’t saying I regard the little girl as an obstacle. I was trying to show how a neurodiverse child who is hyperfocused on an objective might be seeing things at that moment.

Is there group consensus that the friend should be invited?

It’s not usual or acceptable for 10 year olds to hit, push others off climbing frames, or threaten to hurt others when they want something from them. It’s not something anyone has to tolerate. It would be doing everyone, including the boy, a huge disservice to give the impression that it’s ok to be hit, hurt, or scared by him.

Just imagine never being able to contemplate a coffee break never mind a holiday away in a vila..... oh wait

And it really doesn’t matter a bit whether he pushed her to hurt her or because she was an ‘obstacle.’ The end result is that a young girl was pushed off a climbing frame. And from the sounds of this boy (who threatens to hurt people when they won’t give him something) he is aware of his actions and their impact. Either way not acceptable. There were times when my son unfortunately just wasn’t able to access play parks at busy times because he would hurt others. It wasn’t his fault as such. He simply could not control himself to behave appropriately. That did not and does not lessen the impact it has on other children if they’re hurt or terrorised by my child. So we went to the parks crazy early or a bit late, or just accepted that they weren’t suitable for my son’s needs while he was still hurting other people.

Why? The friend having it rough isn’t their fault, and it’s not something they have to ‘make up’ to her by having a holiday they don’t enjoy.

He isn’t malicious or mean he just does stuff in the moment. So, for example, if one of the kids has something he wants and he can’t wait he will threaten them or sometimes hits out. He gets upset if he isn’t first to play with something or doesn’t win or he needs to wait for stuff. But he can be very loving and kind. He will give his sweets away or help one of the others do something. Also he is hilarious and has a lot of fun energy

This is nice that you acknowledge he isn't doing it maliciously as you have said before. And there are simply elements he struggles with due to his autism. It also nice that you acknowledge that you believe it's not due to "bad parenting" as a lot of people who don't understand Autism, see it as.

I do understand a PP mentioning the "moving an obstacle out of the way". Obviously to the majority of other people that would be pushing another child out of the way to get to the top first, which is obviously unacceptable. And while some children with Autism will know that is wrong and unacceptable, some simply don't process the empathy to see the child as little person will get hurt, they see their end goal, wholly focus and attempt to achieve it. But every case of ASD is different.

OP sounds like you have made a good choice in inviting everyone with different cabins and see who wants to come.

I wouldn't blame the boy if I was the girls parent but I wouldn't risk my daughter being hurt again. If that meant I was excluded so be it but I would also start reconsidering friendships in that case.