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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this may amount to child neglect?

155 replies

ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 19:50

Hi all. Basically what the title suggestions, quick back story. Split from narcissistic, emotionally abusive ex-h end of 2019. He was physically abusive in the end and I left. Have 2 DS, one 12 and one 7. Ex husband is increasingly neglectful towards our children. He has them overnight 3 nights per week 3 weeks of the month and 2 nights per week 1 week of the month. My boys have told me numerous things (not questioned by me just in conversation) that he doesn't brush their teeth, falls asleep straight after dinner and they "put them selves' to bed, is always angry and screaming at them for one thing or another and I have witnessed myself when I pick them up on a Sunday, they are always in the same underwear and socks I put them on over 24 hours earlier before dropping them off to him. On occasion they are both still dressed in the exact same clothes I put on them 24 hours earlier and have told me they've slept in them. His home is so unclean and messy, cant see floor in living room or hallway and cant see kitchen worktops due to amount of crap on them. AIBU to say this amounts to child neglect? I am really concerned this will be messing them up and I just don't think he is looking after them as he should, but don't really know where to go or how I would go about contesting his current access.

OP posts:
Lkgcsr · 13/06/2023 19:53

Do you have a court order? If you’re worried about their safety and well-being you’re within your rights to stop contact; in these circumstances I’d be saying no more overnights until he pulls himself together

Nellieinthebarn · 13/06/2023 19:54

I don't know how you should proceed, but you are not being unreasonable. If you were to refuse to let them go to his home what would be his reaction? Would this make you or the children unsafe?

BabyofMine · 13/06/2023 19:56

It probably is, but it’s really hard to tell from this description.
Some people’s view of sides being full of crap actually means they have appliances like a toaster on the side!
One thing I would say is, the 12 year old certainly shouldn’t need their teeth cleaning or to be told to put clean clothes on! To be honest I would expect the 7 year old to be able to do these things too.
He very well may be neglecting them, I’m not saying he isn’t, but are you also teaching them independence?

Thehippowife · 13/06/2023 19:57

Family court. You need to stop the contact of you are worried and then he can make an application to the family court if he wants. In prep for this you should see a family solicitor

vodkaredbullgirl · 13/06/2023 19:58

Surely at 12 and 7 they should be brushing their own teeth and changing their underwear. The rest of it is not on.

cyncope · 13/06/2023 19:59

Why are they still in the same clothes and not brushing their teeth?

hattyhathat · 13/06/2023 20:00

A 12 year old should be able to clean their own teeth and both of them should probably be able to go to bed - 7 year old might need prompting.

The rest of it doesn't sound great.

hattyhathat · 13/06/2023 20:01

The 12 year old should be able to get changed though. Do they have clothes at his?

ExtraOnions · 13/06/2023 20:02

A 12 year old should be brushing thier own teeth , changing their clothes, and putting themselves to bed. 7 year old, maybe needs a bit of
prompting.
Falling asleep after dinner … he won’t be on his own with that.
Messy doesn’t always mean dirty.

Being angry isn’t good though

ThursdayFreedom · 13/06/2023 20:02

do they want to go to his or not?

Tryagainplease · 13/06/2023 20:02

It sounds like neglect to me, OP.
Just because they can physically do it themselves doesn’t mean they don’t need an adult to prompt them “come on kids, time for bed - go brush your teeth/put pjs on and I will tuck you in” (at least for the younger one)

Cant actually believe that posters are already accusing you of ‘not teaching them to be independent’

In terms of what you do about it, I’m sorry I can’t really advise but I would not be happy if my DS’ dad treated him this way when he stays with him. Sounds to me like he’s just doing the bare min so he can pay you less child support.

Sprinkles211 · 13/06/2023 20:03

If it's not court mandated no way in hell I'd let my children in that environment and if it is I'd fight it and the reasons why

Original poster
ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 20:06

THank you all for replies. I'm trying to teach them independence and tell them importance of teeth brushing etc. 12 year old is typically lazy pre-teen when it comes to things like this but I am trying with him. Dad doesn't really look after himself, looks like he hasn't showered in days at times so I'm not sure he is modeling great behaviors. I'll be honest I would never expect either of them to put themselves to bed in my house. By putting themselves to bed, I mean their dad in conked out sleeping on the couch and they are left to go to sleep and into their beds themselves. I don't know if this is just me, but I would always put both of them into bed and wouldn't expect them to do this themselves. A 12 year old would stay up all night I feel.

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 13/06/2023 20:07

I don't understand. Do they both have special needs that mean that they're unable to brush their teeth, get into pyjamas etc?

He sounds like a pretty shitty father, but a lot of the things you mention would not need a parent's intervention at those ages.

hattyhathat · 13/06/2023 20:08

ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 20:06

THank you all for replies. I'm trying to teach them independence and tell them importance of teeth brushing etc. 12 year old is typically lazy pre-teen when it comes to things like this but I am trying with him. Dad doesn't really look after himself, looks like he hasn't showered in days at times so I'm not sure he is modeling great behaviors. I'll be honest I would never expect either of them to put themselves to bed in my house. By putting themselves to bed, I mean their dad in conked out sleeping on the couch and they are left to go to sleep and into their beds themselves. I don't know if this is just me, but I would always put both of them into bed and wouldn't expect them to do this themselves. A 12 year old would stay up all night I feel.

The 12 year old in my life knows her bed time and just gets up and goes to bed - we say night night and up she goes

Original poster
ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 20:14

No neither have special needs. Sounds like I'm asking too much from their dad here by the sounds of things 😂 but I'd never go to sleep without knowing they're both in bed and have brushed teeth etc. They both brush their teeth and can get dressed independently of course however they do need prompting to do things usually. I'm not brushing their teeth for them, but I would expect him to prompt them to do these things and he doesn't bother his arse.

OP posts:
Original poster
ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 20:19

Dad apparently doesn't have pajamas for them at his house, and their dad falling asleep after dinner will mean they either put themselves to bed in the clothes I have sent them in or will take these clothes off, sleep in underwear and will be told by dad to put these dirty clothes back on the next day. I'm guessing to save him washing/sorting clean clothes for them.

OP posts:
PonyPatter44 · 13/06/2023 20:26

Do they enjoy going to his house? If they do, I would be making it very plain to both boys that they're not babies and the 12 year old needs to be brushing his own teeth and putting his pyjamas on, as well as making sure his little brother does too.

If the boys aren't bothered about going or if they don't improve, I would be stopping the visits until dad cleans up his act.

SnackSizeRaisin · 13/06/2023 20:28

I don't think the lack of clothes changing for one night is neglect. Nor is the failing to put them to bed. Lazy and not ideal perhaps but not neglectful. The 7 year old should be reminded to brush his teeth. Both of them should be able to change into clean clothes ... 12 is really old to not be doing this IMO. Although if this pattern has been going on a while he has probably just got used to the idea that certain things only get done at mum's house.
The thing that would concern me from what you've said is the shouting. I would want to be sure he is kind to them.

PartnersInCrime · 13/06/2023 20:28

I'd say yes it's neglect. If there's no clean clothes/PJs/underwear then even a 12 year old won't magically be able to do those things. And shocking that people would think it's acceptable that a 7 year old should put themselves to bed.... what happened to bed time stories and a cuddle?

Can you chat to the safeguarding lead at school or GP to ask for some advice? I think you'd be reasonable to stop over nights.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 13/06/2023 20:28

Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a bit confused though... are you saying that they don't brush their teeth when they're there because they aren't prompted to do so? Or they do brush their teeth despite the fact that their dad can't be arsed to prompt them? I'm surprised that a NT 12 yo would need prompting tbh. Fair enough with a 7yo - some would have the habit sussed by that age whereas I guess others might not.

Re pyjamas - again, it's rubbish that their dad doesn't provide for them, not disputing that. But if they know they don't have any there, could they not pack some from your house? Or could you get some for them to keep there? Or could you/ they ask him to buy some?

The 12 yo would be old enough to chuck stuff in the washing machine if dad is too lazy... lots of kids do their own laundry at that age?

Hoppingmad231 · 13/06/2023 20:32

vodkaredbullgirl · 13/06/2023 19:58

Surely at 12 and 7 they should be brushing their own teeth and changing their underwear. The rest of it is not on.

This

hattyhathat · 13/06/2023 20:34

ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 20:14

No neither have special needs. Sounds like I'm asking too much from their dad here by the sounds of things 😂 but I'd never go to sleep without knowing they're both in bed and have brushed teeth etc. They both brush their teeth and can get dressed independently of course however they do need prompting to do things usually. I'm not brushing their teeth for them, but I would expect him to prompt them to do these things and he doesn't bother his arse.

That's completely different. But still the 12 year old should know to clean their teeth.

bellac11 · 13/06/2023 20:36

The only thing that I would be concerned about is the shouting and being angry and that is far far more concerning than a messy house or not prompting to clean teeth (as others have said children of those ages should know to do it but they may need motivating)

If the kids dont want to go or are unhappy or frightened there, they dont have to go, but I would go to court over this to get it formalised

Might be better if dad has contact in the community

Original poster
ElleC90 · 13/06/2023 20:39

Sorry I think this is absolute madness. Why should a 12 year old be expected to do laundry because his dad is too lazy to keep clothes clean for them?! Who is the parent and who is the child here?! Because at 12 and 7, last time I checked, they are both still children. I've taught my 12 year old basic things like how to make toast, how to cook basic things like eggs, make a cuppa, properly tidy his room. Doing washings isn't something I'd expect them to NEED to do because the parent isn't doing it. It may be something I add into his chores for pocket money in the next few years but its not something he should be required to do because his dad would rather sleep.

OP posts: