To think this may amount to child neglect?

[ElleC90]

Hi all. Basically what the title suggestions, quick back story. Split from narcissistic, emotionally abusive ex-h end of 2019. He was physically abusive in the end and I left. Have 2 DS, one 12 and one 7. Ex husband is increasingly neglectful towards our children. He has them overnight 3 nights per week 3 weeks of the month and 2 nights per week 1 week of the month. My boys have told me numerous things (not questioned by me just in conversation) that he doesn't brush their teeth, falls asleep straight after dinner and they "put them selves' to bed, is always angry and screaming at them for one thing or another and I have witnessed myself when I pick them up on a Sunday, they are always in the same underwear and socks I put them on over 24 hours earlier before dropping them off to him. On occasion they are both still dressed in the exact same clothes I put on them 24 hours earlier and have told me they've slept in them. His home is so unclean and messy, cant see floor in living room or hallway and cant see kitchen worktops due to amount of crap on them. AIBU to say this amounts to child neglect? I am really concerned this will be messing them up and I just don't think he is looking after them as he should, but don't really know where to go or how I would go about contesting his current access.

They are there I think 11/28 nights? They should have basic clean clothes there and some things like coats and shoes going between houses. I'd expect a rucksack for 2/14 nights.

Does the 12 year old have a phone? Does he ever take photos there so you can see what state the house is in?

Lack of personal care when they are there suggests to me that there is no routine and that the home may not be set up for their normal way of doing things. Do they have a clean bathroom and clean towels to use while they are there? A clean safe bed to sleep in? A room which gives them some privacy to get changed and where they feel secure and relaxed enough to get a good night's sleep?

Agree with others. Am more than a bit surprised at the 12y needing prompting to brush teeth etc. And surely they should
take spare pants and pyjamas for their own comfort. And the 7y old needs more care and attention.

I don’t think it sounds bad enough for social services to intervene though, given current thresholds.

I would just make sure the boys go with all
they need. And if they want to stop going then listen to them.

He screams at his sons? So why would they keep going back? Isn’t it just teaching them that it’s ok for someone who is supposed to love them to scare and upset them? 😢

I think people are being deliberately obtuse here: yes technically children of this age can change their underwear and brush their teeth but the OP has painted a picture of an environment where there is no supervision and no pastoral care.

If my DD was staying at my ex's several nights a month and she didn't undertake basic self-care he either would step in and make sure it got done or say something to me. And my ex is hardly a paragon of fatherhood so the bar is fairly low.

It's very clear from this post that he is living in squalor and making no attempt to make the most basic checks on their hygiene and welfare. Parroting that they can brush their own teeth wildly misses the point. He is responsible for their welfare and if they can't or won't do it he should step in.

Does he have a drink or substance problem?

I think you would be well within your rights to refuse overnight stays until he gets his act together. Can you seek to get a court order?

Yes, I'd say that's neglectful (lack of) parenting.

At 7 and 12 there are things they should probably be doing for themselves, but their dad is apparently modelling not doing those things. Why would a 12 year old and a 7 year old be interested in oral hygiene and clean socks if their dad clearly isn't, for them or himself?

There's a big difference between a child doing tasks like laundry because it's part of a functional household's daily routine and a child having to do it because the responsible adult doesn't care enough to do it.

Their dad is potentially neglecting and emotionally/psychologically abusing them. Personally, I think you need to seek legal advice about how to change the arrangements to keep your children safe from further harm.

Yes you're right, 11 nights per month. I buy double school uniform and give him half, as he wouldn't buy any. He gives minimum child support, CSA intervened and he pays £95 per month per child. I can't honestly afford two wardrobes for them, one in my house and one in his home, and I think CSA is reduced from full amount depending on overnight stays on the basis he provides basics for them on the days he has them also but this doesn't happen

during the week I tell my kids (14, 12, 9) to go to bed, but I don’t on the weekend. They have to learn themselves. My 12 year old will take himself to bed if he has plans next morning to go fishing or something. I also don’t ever tell my kids to shower or change clothes. It’s something they just do on their own. They put their dirty clothes in the hamper and then on the weekends I do the washing and give them their basket to put away. When my 12 year old has ‘lazy’ weekends he sometimes stays in the same clothes for a day. I think at that age they have some ownership for their own hygiene. When they were younger and I would remind them about teeth if they complained, I would just say well if you don’t brush them it’s not hurting me, will only be hurting yourself when you get holes and need to go the dentist. Only thing that will hurt me is paying. You will be the one in the chair 🤷‍♀️

Sorry but this really is nonsense and the flippant "do they have special needs" is just so offensive.

It's not typical for a 7 year old to trip off and clean their teeth, wash face and hands, get into PJs, draw their curtains and get into bed at the appropriate time completely unprompted by an adult without so much as a "goodnight" from their parent. That's not what is happening in the average, healthy home.

Even if a 7 year old is not being tucked into bed and kissed goodnight - which, by the way is completely normal and average and age appropriate - the parents who aren't negligent will be at the very least overseeing bedtime to ensure that the kids are in bed with PJs on and clean teeth at the right time. Even just a "Come on, Bob, it's time to brush your teeth and get ready for bed now". You can't just clock off and pass out on the sofa after teatime when you are the sole adult in charge of a 7 year old. Surely you know that really?

So there’s poor home conditions, he’s falling asleep and leaving two children unattended, he’s not ensuring there personal hygiene needs are met, he’s not ensuring they are in bed and we’ll rested for school and he’s screaming at them. I work in children safeguarding and would say this is low level neglect and emotional abuse.

This thread is bizarre.
In what world is it normal for a 12yo and a 7yo to look after themselves from tea time until waking the next morning with no adult involvement? I can't believe the OP is being accused of letting her kids lack independence. Neglect includes emotional neglect. YANBU OP.

Yes this is child neglect.

It s 24 hours?
Not ideal
But not huge

I am with you 100% OP!

Everyone talking about what a 7 and 12 year old should be functionally able to do, is NOT THE POINT!

Where is the love, nurture, quality time, care? What’s the point of them being there with a messy, lazy, unconscious father who doesn’t give a shit about their comfort or enjoyment?

Suggesting that a 12 year old should just take charge and sort them both out whilst there because their dad can’t be bothered is just cruel and awful. They are children, they should feel welcome, valued and cared for in his home. To then be yelled at the whole time too? What a totally sad and shitty experience for them: dad cannot be bothered with us.

OP I would talk to your DC and find out how they feel about all aspects of staying with him. Things need to change, they deserve so much more.

Well said - some awful comments on here to a mother who's trying to ensure her children are safe and properly cared for when they're with their father.
As a pp has said OP, it's low level neglect and he needs to step up and parent better. No 7 year old should be left to care for himself all evening and night.

How you tackle it is the challenge OP. Is there anyone (family / friend) who might be able to talk to him?

He sound slike he cant be bothered with them at all-is he an alcoholic

just falling asleep after dinner and not waking up all night is extreme

and the clothes thing is petty my sisters ex done this said im not buying him extra clothes hes already got some

Angry and screaming is a big deal if its all the time.
What do they think ?

Exactly. So this bloke has his kids for roughly a third of each month, has no interaction with them at all beyond feeding them and giving them a bed and screaming at them intermittently, doesn't make any attempt to maintain basic hygiene, either relating to them or him (and doesn't have any clothes for them) or making sure they get a good night's sleep.

But it's all fine because this is encouraging independence? OK then....

Am so pleased some sensible people have arrived on your thread OP!

I'd also be worrying about the things they haven't told you about, either bc they're scared to or bc they don't realise they're harmful.

I'm still quite close with his sister and brother, both have tried speaking to him aswell as his uncle who I also still speak to. They're not happy at all the way he lives and how he is with the boys but if anyone criticises him he cuts them off totally and won't listen. Its like talking to a wall. I've text/called so many times asking for basic things to be done and just get total denial from him. I'm not asking him to be superdad, just look after them properly you know? I just don't get why he won't step up and do the right things.

Why can't they clean their own teeth? Do they have additional needs and can't do it for themselves? Can't they put on clean pants and socks themselves? They are not babies who need dressing. They should be dressing themselves in clean clothes. Could you get the 12 year old to take photos of the kitchen and sitting room areas including the floors? If they would you could seek advice from SS. Does he cook them meals or leave them hungry? Can they shower there? Do they have a bed each? It sounds like he needs to clean up a bit but equally the children are not babies and should be capable of cleaning their teeth and getting dressed in clean pants themselves.

(I've been in a less extreme version of this situation, re my kids when at their dad's)

I'm astonished at all these people who seem to have seven year olds who would brush their teeth unprompted. Mine must have been faulty.

Completely agree with this.

No they don't have additional needs. As I said on a previous post, they physically clean their teeth themselves and wouldn't expect him to do this but a nudge in the right direction, even 'its bedtime now, teeth then bed' would suffice. As would him actually staying awake long enough to give this gentle nudge 😂 Also dress themselves but I have clean uniform/clothes out for them at my house to dress themselves in.