To think this may amount to child neglect?

[ElleC90]

Hi all. Basically what the title suggestions, quick back story. Split from narcissistic, emotionally abusive ex-h end of 2019. He was physically abusive in the end and I left. Have 2 DS, one 12 and one 7. Ex husband is increasingly neglectful towards our children. He has them overnight 3 nights per week 3 weeks of the month and 2 nights per week 1 week of the month. My boys have told me numerous things (not questioned by me just in conversation) that he doesn't brush their teeth, falls asleep straight after dinner and they "put them selves' to bed, is always angry and screaming at them for one thing or another and I have witnessed myself when I pick them up on a Sunday, they are always in the same underwear and socks I put them on over 24 hours earlier before dropping them off to him. On occasion they are both still dressed in the exact same clothes I put on them 24 hours earlier and have told me they've slept in them. His home is so unclean and messy, cant see floor in living room or hallway and cant see kitchen worktops due to amount of crap on them. AIBU to say this amounts to child neglect? I am really concerned this will be messing them up and I just don't think he is looking after them as he should, but don't really know where to go or how I would go about contesting his current access.

Bet you wouldn't be saying that if it was a reverse and the OP was the father.

Let me guess he wanted this arrangement so he didn’t have to pay child maintenance but já never been the main caregiver until you separated ? Go back to court or contact ss with your concerns . Sorry but those kids are dirty , living in awful conditions and not properly supervised . That’s neglect

At 7 and 12 they should know to get dressed into new clothes each day, to brush their teeth, and to have a wash. My 3 and 5 year old go and get their toothbrushes and toothpaste by themselves and wash their faces each night and dress themselves too sometimes! He sounds like a crap dad, what with all the falling asleep and shouting, but there is a difference between being crap and neglectful.

Of course they need prompting! There's a reason why 12 and 7 year olds don't live in their own flats.

But the bar for fathers is so low that people will make a 7 year old responsible for parenting himself rather than make a lazy father responsible for doing actual parenting.

Family Court will no doubt call this a "difference in parenting style".

With the right support, you should be aiming for the children to learn to assert themselves whilst in their father's care.

As there is no formal arrangement, you could exercise your parental responsibility and withhold the children, citing that their welfare needs are not being adequately met by their father, and until such a time as he makes the house more sanitary, provides basic healthcare equipment and clothing, you are not prepared to facilitate contact.

Alternatively, ask to speak to the DSL at the children's school/s, and see if they can speak with the children about what they experience when they're at dad's house, and then the DSL can get in touch with dad and suggest he might want to buck his ideas up in order to promote a more healthy relationship with your children in future.

Fucking hell the bar is set so unbelievably low for fathers isn't it? Stop sending them, let him take you to court. Whatever you do do not keep buying clothes, pj's and whatnot. Im assuming you're not made of money?

Yes, I completely agree.

The arrangement doesn’t sound good - they are with their father a lot for there to be so many things not sorted. And I don’t think people telling you to ‘just let your kids sort everything themselves’ is any kind of answer. I was still having to remind my 15 year old to brush his teeth. It’s called parenting.

You can’t parent by remotes control. Once those kids start hitting 13, 14 etc, what if one of them starting to get anxiety, or dodgy sites on the internet, or drinking - you’ve got to be on the ball as a parent even more as teenagers. I’d be cutting down the time at their Dad’s, it just sounds like overnight with someone who cooks a meal and that’s it. This should all be about the kids and them having the best parenting, so make sure they get it.

I was still having to remind my 15 year old to brush his teeth. It’s called parenting.

Really? If you're still having to remind an NT 15 year old to brush his teeth, I would say that something has gone a bit wrong with the parenting, personally.

15 is only 3 years off being an adult! If they haven't even mastered the most basic self care habits by this stage, it's going to be an incredibly steep learning curve for them as they head into adulthood.

I guess it's hardly surprising that some young people are so woefully underprepared for adult life if their parents have such low expectations of them.

I'm assuming a lot of the replies on here are trolling you. I would definitely at least reduce the time they spend there. 3 nights a week most weeks is really a lot to spend in this environment, either none or max one night at a time. You've tried speaking to him, his family, supplying everything your children would need for their stays. It's not working and that's unlikely to change. This man was abusive as your partner and has remained so as your ex. Take some advice from Women's aid or a legal mediation service or whatever you need but I wouldn't base any decision making on some strangers on the internet claiming their 7 year old would have brushed their teeth, done the dishes, made everyone dinner, learned to compensate by now for their father's inadequacy, got a pHd, and that you are failing as a parent.

Op, please look up and read some articles by Emma Katz, she researches post-separation abuse - this is what you and your children are dealing with.

Domestic violence isn't caused by two people in an unhappy relationship, or is caused by one controlling individual, and the abuse continues beyond separation.

https://dremmakatz.com/coercive-control/

Also see the post-separation abuse wheel, attached here.

Seek help from Women's Aid, they will be able to give you informed support about your particular situation.

If he is shouting and emotionally abusing the children they will be very impacted by this. It will be harder for them to do things that other people are saying their kids do, because they are living with stress and trauma from their dad. I'm so sorry you are going through this. You are concerned about your children for good reason, so seek the help you and they deserve.

*it is caused by

Definitely not made of money I wish 😂 like most I can't afford to have two full wardrobes one for my house and one for his

Thank you so much, this is so helpful 🥰 will have a look at her stuff today

Thank you. I've spent last night and this morning since I've woke up looking at child independence and age appropriate chores thinking I'm somehow failing them lol. I just assumed most other parents still have to nudge their kids in right direction to brush teeth etc and then tuck young kids in at night. I think if my 12yo still lives at home when he's 17/18 I will still pop my head in and say goodnight or have a chat with him, can't imagine going to sleep without doing that 😕

Good luck OP. I'm still a bit shocked at the posters ignoring the grim parenting this man provides for your children while berating you about teeth cleaning!
It's obvious you're the responsible parent here - please don't let thoughtless comments undermine you.

Hopefully the NSPCC can give advice about the way forward. Also suggest you document what's happened so far - incidents, dates, when others spoke to him etc. You mentioned that you have yet to file for divorce because you fear he'll go for even more time with them so it's vital to record everything in case you ever need the evidence. He's not currently a fit parent in lots of ways and the NSPCC who are a statutory agency might be the way to force him to change. Your kids deserve better from him.

It's not ideal is it, OP?

But I don't agree that it is tantamount to abuse.

You have to weigh up the long term emotional damage and cost of denying them access to their father vs him being a bit shit and not doing things to your standard.

I can't remember the last time I told my 12 year old to brush her teeth! I'm sure she doesn't always do it either.

In the end you chose to have kids with a loser. I'm not criticising. I had 3 DCs with a complete loser. At least your XH bothers with them.

I wouldn't base any decision making on some strangers on the internet claiming their 7 year old would have brushed their teeth, done the dishes, made everyone dinner, learned to compensate by now for their father's inadequacy, got a pHd, and that you are failing as a parent.

Well said.

It is possible trolling, but also isn't blaming women so much easier then holding men to account?

Yes I totally get this and would also really be worried about any emotional impact on them not seeing him/having him around. But the way his lifestyle is and his lack of parenting will also be emotionally and physically damaging them I believe. If they have no sense of worth, don't feel loved, feel as if he doesn't care...this will impact them in both the long and short term. His lifestyle is one I would hate my boys to think is normal.

Their dad doesn't sound good at all but do they enjoy going to his? If yes, and if he doesn't endanger them in any way they should continue seeing him. Do they have any fun with their dad? What do they think about shouting and the mess?

But maybe you need to stop them staying overnight, if he drinks so much he is pretty much paracletic in the afternoon. He wouldn't be useful in any situation if there is an accident or emergency of any kind - your kids are basically left on their own at night. Which is not good tbh.

And - of course 12 yo should be able to change their clothes and go to bed on time but, as we all now, even if they could doesn't mean they will )))

All of this. Great post @getyourfucksinarow

All children (probably most grown-ups, too) benefit from a bedtime routine and sleep hygiene. So of course a 7yo and 12yo can brush their teeth. But that’s not the point. Where is the care? If he’s ill then he needs to seek help. If he’s not then he needs to be a much better parent. But mostly, as he is an angry man who screams at them and then disappears and leaves them alone, it’s hard to see why they would want to stay with him.

I don't think him being a dirty swine would damage them emotionally tbh. Kids would think its normal because that's what kids are like - they take everyhting in their stride.

But if there any physical or emotional abuse going on and you have evidence of it then you need to report him and go to court. Only do this if you are 100% sure your kids will get hurt otherwise. Its expensive, stressful and horrible. And after all this they will probably still continue to see their dad, most likely under supervision, and it would be more emotionally damaging than not changing underpants.

Also agree 7yo is too little to keep up with hygiene and put himself to bed. Should not be left alone. And 12 yo should not be expected to babysit his brother and keep the household ticking and basically be an adult. What is it, Victorian times?

It's not so much the teeth cleaning it's the total lack of supervision or care. What if the 7 yo got hurt or felt upset, or had a fight with the 12yo?

@3487642I The most insightful post on this thread, and one of the reasons, despite the ‘just send your kids with instructions of how to parent themselves’ posters, there are some very useful bits of advice from people who are more considered on the OPs issue.

I posted to say that amongst other things, my 15 year did in fact need reminding to brush his teeth. This is parenting. Why did he need that? Well lots of reasons, but one of them was because his father never reminded him or helped him in his contact visits, and so what could have probably been something my child had ingrained in him was being regularly neglected. It has an effect. And the mother, me, is not to blame for this!