To think this may amount to child neglect?

[ElleC90]

Hi all. Basically what the title suggestions, quick back story. Split from narcissistic, emotionally abusive ex-h end of 2019. He was physically abusive in the end and I left. Have 2 DS, one 12 and one 7. Ex husband is increasingly neglectful towards our children. He has them overnight 3 nights per week 3 weeks of the month and 2 nights per week 1 week of the month. My boys have told me numerous things (not questioned by me just in conversation) that he doesn't brush their teeth, falls asleep straight after dinner and they "put them selves' to bed, is always angry and screaming at them for one thing or another and I have witnessed myself when I pick them up on a Sunday, they are always in the same underwear and socks I put them on over 24 hours earlier before dropping them off to him. On occasion they are both still dressed in the exact same clothes I put on them 24 hours earlier and have told me they've slept in them. His home is so unclean and messy, cant see floor in living room or hallway and cant see kitchen worktops due to amount of crap on them. AIBU to say this amounts to child neglect? I am really concerned this will be messing them up and I just don't think he is looking after them as he should, but don't really know where to go or how I would go about contesting his current access.

Your assumption is completely wrong.

You mean your children aren't even capable of packing the small amount of clothes that they take to their dad's?

My DCs packed their own stuff when we went to stay with their GPs for the weekend, from your youngest's age if not before! Yes, we'd initially check that they'd packed sensible stuff before we set off, but I never had to check that they'd repacked it before we left.

You really should have encouraged your DCs' independence long ago. Especially the now 12 year old.

Yours should be packing their own bags with a change of clothes, their PJs and toiletries, and bringing them back again. It's absolutely ridiculous that your 12 year old is incapable of this.

So no comment on the father's neglect - just piling in on the woman who (if you bothered to RTFT) has taken seriously this point. Wow.

Yes it's an interesting double standard. I think many lazy fathers would love to know it's ok to not parent once DC are 7. I wonder what age it's ok not to parent an Autistic child, stbxh would be glad to know they'll be no parenting required in a couple of years.

OP does he have 3 weekends out of 4? You mentioned him having 3 Saturdays. Id be dropping that to eow and a weeknight if it is whole weekend, you don't want to get caught in the pattern of never having full weekends with your DC. What did he want to change it to? If it was him having less time with them I'd try and make that happen. I'd be getting to reduce contact, give it a few months maybe 6 or so to become established then file for divorce. Provided its working for DC the longer you have a specific pattern of contact in place the better your chances of getting them to approve the status quo and not change to 50/50.

my son's are 12 and 7 and there is no way they would voluntarily brush their teeth, bath themselves and get clean clothes on... They would sit and fester quite happily.

The ExH doesn't sound neglectful but he sounds like a lazy arsehole. I would stop contact

I would send them with enough clean clothing etc whilst they were away that they then bring home for you to wash
if older DC has a mobile I would be texting or what’s apping reminders to them about teeth etc

My ex h like this. Ds would go there once a week after school. Told me his dad would cook for him at 5.30 and then go to bed. Ds had to get himself to bed then up in morning and off to school with no breakfast. I would phone ds that night to ensure he ok then and again at 7.30 in morning to ensure he up for school.

if I did this I’d be accused of neglect.

When their dad and I first separated, so when they were aged 3 and 8, I would pack bags for them to take to their dads with pants, socks, nice clothes, pyjamas. It didn't matter whether the clothes sent were plain Primark joggers or a Nike tracksuit, they never came home wearing them. Dad would always remove the extra clothes, especially if they were expensive, and they would not be returned. Hence, why I no longer send clothes there.

I mean, I think you do understand, right?

There's a hell of a difference between randomly falling asleep after dinner at 7pm on a couch as a parent, and just leaving your kids to roam free and do whatever, every time they visit, and actually saying time for bed kids, expecting them to do their teeth, and seeing them quickly into bed.

One says 'cant be arsed about your welfare', clearly and that's a shit feeling for a kid. That's the point.

Yes he has them Monday and Wednesday nights from after school pick up (eldest comes home on his own) til school drop off next day and from Saturday 4pm til Sunday 4pm. He has recently dropped one Saturday per month at his request, because I refused to swap him a Saturday for an alternate day so he could drink with his friends on that Saturday or golf on a Sunday. it's a great life being a dad eh 😂 will keep this in mind about the divorce, I don't think he has enough money to pay for legal representation so that may stop him requesting 50/50. He will also be keen to pay no child support as he absolutely despises sending me money towards them each month.

Of course this is neglect. I am really upset by some of the other posters responses to be honest. A 7 year old could brush his teeth and get dressed but a parent needs to supply them with with clothes and a toothbrush which he is not doing here. It might be bearable for one night a week but not for shared care.

The biggest concern is that he is getting so drunk that he can’t care for them. What if there was an emergency?

Contact is considered to be important so that children can receive love from their parents. They are not getting this here. Maybe if they had less contact but it was during the day they might actually have get something out of it. Is contact court ordered?

No contact isn't court ordered. My fear is, because he is so unpredictable and has a history of violence (not just towards me, he will go on nights out and end up fighting etc - He's mid 40s btw) I fear that if I stop all contact/reduce contact further he will kick off and potentially harm me, come round to my home, start harassing me. In typical narccisist fashion I think he likes to tell people he is a great dad and likes the 'show' aspect of having them overnight the amount of times he does, therefore if contact were stopped this wouldn't enable him to do this. He has also told our boys that I am stopping him seeing them, because I refused to change the schedule we have had in place for 3 and a half years so he can have more time with his friends. I explained the situation in full to my eldest without being nasty about his dad.

Just seen that he has asked to swap contact to play golf and go out - surely if he can play golf and socialise then he can keep himself sober enough to show some love to his small sons - the man is a disgrace.

I'm so sorry you feel worried about reducing contact. Could you stop overnights or would he get aggressive?

Are you getting any help from a domestic abuse service like women’s aid? They can also provide support to your children. This would be classed as post separation abuse. They can advise on what to do. You may need to get the police involved.

Just to reiterate OP - record everything as far as is possible. Details of fights, aggression, requests to change / stop contact. If & when you divorce, having the details to hand that proves his levels of aggression / neglect may well help stop him getting 50 / 50 - especially as he wants it to avoid paying for his kids, rather than a wish to actually parent them.

Screenshot every text /email where he's changing arrangements, complaining about spending / parenting etc - make a record of everything. You don't have to use it but if he's the knob he appears to be then it's back up when it's your word against his.

It's great that your kids have you on their side.

he will kick off and potentially harm me, come round to my home, start harassing me

Let him
Lock doors
Call 999
Gets you evidence

You absolutely can’t have him bully you into letting your kids be seriously under parented. Your kids deserve more stability. Do it gradually if you think it will help and record everything. If he kicks off and comes to your house, phone the police. Seriously phone them. It will be logged and dealt with, and this will be a further reason to not let your kids be in the middle of this.

Despite the posters who think kids are self service from the age of 5 years old, most kids are not like this, and most kids need quite a lot of input. When your kids are coming up to exams or going out with friends, that is even more of a flash point if a parent doesn’t really know where they are or what they are doing.

And let’s face it, doesn’t sound like he is really wanting to be a parent. It’s more the ‘having them there’ but he’s doing nothing much.

You need to get strong here OP. These are your kids, their welfare comes first and you just need to cut down this amount of contact massively. He can have regularly times but it sounds more EOW is much more appropriate. That way if the kids don’t brush their teeth / be parented emotionally etc it’s only occasionally compared to half the time.

If you fear for your safety you need legal help . Contact women’s aid or a solicitor . Please get help . Your boys should not have this much contact with someone that will violent

Thanks so much for all the replies. My youngest asked me tonight while putting him to bed could he stay at my house this Saturday and would I speak to his dad about it, I asked him why but he said no reason I just want to stay with you 🙁 I did say to him whether he thought dad would be a bit sad if he didn't see him, he just shrugged his shoulders the wee soul.

Amazed at the posters failing to see their irony in stating that kids need to be taught to know how to brush their teeth, put themselves to bed become independent etc and putting all the ownership for the task on mum....whilst they're at their dad's house, who can't even demonstrate self sufficiency. Their actual other parent, not some random half hearted uncle. Attacking the woman for the man not doing his part of the job... Mum is literally saying she wants them prompted for these things so they can learn how to do it.

Deffo would stop overnights. İf this was happening under your care it would deffo be seen as neglect, so why should he get away with it when you wouldn't? Just because you pick up your slack it doesn't mean this is enough to make up for what they lack when they go there. Stop overnights and go for more maintenance, so you can get a babysitter if you need a night off.

But saying that I know, I know, I know it's not easy when you have an abusive person to deal with and you're afraid of their reaction. Bullies get away with crap because they know they frighten people into getting what they want. İf you can work with women's aid, social services and the courts to help boost your confidence, it might help you make the situation better for you and your kids.

OP I think you are quite right to be concerned, if he’s asleep on the sofa they are not really being parented and it is neglecting them. How lonely for them. Of course a 12 year old still needs guidance to brush teeth and get to bed and of course a 7 year old. You are being a good parent to be concerned. He doesn’t sound very safe at the moment. I hope you get some resolution.

That’s not the point, the point is that they are being neglected because he is asleep on sofa before their bedtime and it looks like they are being yelled at at left to their own devices. Sounds a very sad and lonely visit to me.

Ooof. Please don’t say things like, “Don’t you think your dad will be sad.” to your kids @ElleC90 That’s not fair to them at all. They aren’t responsible for a grown adult’s feelings.

It’s a big deal that he’s asked not to go and trusted you enough to ask.

I know this is and older post but would like to ask if you think your ex has a problem with alcohol? When my siblings and I had to spend time with our dad as kids he would secretly drink all day and then pass out in the evening so we were unable to wake him and we would then have to fend for ourselves until the next day. It was scary for us as children and it wasn’t the kind of situation where we were all thinking about brushing our teeth and going to bed like we would in normal circumstances.