To think this may amount to child neglect?

[ElleC90]

Hi all. Basically what the title suggestions, quick back story. Split from narcissistic, emotionally abusive ex-h end of 2019. He was physically abusive in the end and I left. Have 2 DS, one 12 and one 7. Ex husband is increasingly neglectful towards our children. He has them overnight 3 nights per week 3 weeks of the month and 2 nights per week 1 week of the month. My boys have told me numerous things (not questioned by me just in conversation) that he doesn't brush their teeth, falls asleep straight after dinner and they "put them selves' to bed, is always angry and screaming at them for one thing or another and I have witnessed myself when I pick them up on a Sunday, they are always in the same underwear and socks I put them on over 24 hours earlier before dropping them off to him. On occasion they are both still dressed in the exact same clothes I put on them 24 hours earlier and have told me they've slept in them. His home is so unclean and messy, cant see floor in living room or hallway and cant see kitchen worktops due to amount of crap on them. AIBU to say this amounts to child neglect? I am really concerned this will be messing them up and I just don't think he is looking after them as he should, but don't really know where to go or how I would go about contesting his current access.

I completely agree with you and am shocked at the excusers on here.

As per previous poster is he an alcoholic? Depressed? Or just doesn't give a shit.

It's worrying on several levels as you can't trust he is looking after them and what they could get up to on their own unsupervised or if something happened.

Really tedious repetitive comments about "do they have special needs," It's not just children with SEN who need their parents to be involved. ALL children need to know their parents care about them and want to make sure their teeth are clean and they're in clean clothes and fed and so on. Thinking otherwise is frankly bizarre. I wonder how happy all these "independent" children really are. I was one - I actually felt no one really cared about me enough to check, prompt etc.

Do you have a parenting agreement? If not I would be looking at getting one that sets out minimum standards of care when they are at his. I would also I am afraid be quite significantly decreasing the time they spend with him, because it sounds to me from what you say that they find staying with him stressful. Not fair to impose this burden on them.

Does he smoke a lot of weed btw? Because when I read your description of his lifestyle & what he does & doesn’t do that is what sprang immediately to my mind - the description of his behaviour resembles very strongly that of some men in my own family who (unfortunately) smoke heavily.

7 is too young to be left to get on with it. So, arguably, is 12. I know there are people on here whose 18 month old was cooking a full Sunday roast and putting on a load of washing before breakfast - but in real life, most engaged and loving parents have a routine with their children which means the children know what happens when. In a 'normal' household, a 12 yr old would get all the 'cues' for it being time for them to make tracks to bed, washed, dressed in their pyjamas and with their teeth brushed. Obviously you don't stand over a 12 yr old while they do this, but it's just part of the routine. It's also normal to say goodnight to a 12 yr old, even if you just pop your head round the door to say it. With a 7 yr old, you might well help them brush their teeth and get washed and ready for bed, and then read them a story and tuck them into bed. 7 yr olds should not be putting themselves to bed with no input from a parent, and I would be seeing if the contact arrangements could be changed so that your sons are not staying with their father (they can still see him and do stuff with him in the daytime, obviously).

This is a batshit response. I agree with you op.

No we have no formal arrangement. I haven't yet filed for divorce as I'm afraid he will ask for 50/50 split for childcare which would be terrible unless he could really ensure they were being looked after. Do you know how I would go about getting a parental agreement? I am member of union with work and have some free hours legal advice, will try booking an appointment this week and see if they can give any advice re all of this 😊

Another issue is what are they learning about what a man is / does? All those posters on here with such low standards they're unbothered about a father treating his sons so uncaringly, shouting repeatedly and is such an appalling role model for fatherhood.
Your boys deserve better OP. Your commitment to enabling him as a parent is evident but it sounds as if it's time that their welfare must be now be the priority.

Same!

This is my worry also. What kind of example is he setting them, will they grow up thinking it's normal for dads to do absolutely nothing and not be present parents if/when they become them? Its so upsetting. I just don't get why he can't do basics.

He doesn't smoke weed, when I've previously been in his home it doesn't smell of it. He loves a drink, was always out every weekend with friends when we were together. He stopped taking them one saturday per month because he "can never do anything on saturday nights or sundays with my pals". I know he has friends over some saturdays, which probably means he is drinking with them in the house while he has the boys there. But it would probably come down to proving he does this wouldn't it?

Sorry - haven't had time to read the full thread.
Could you send clean clothes into school for them to change into there if needed?
Not ideal but at least they wouldn't go missing at their dad's house.

I don’t think you’re asking too much from their father, but you are expecting too little from your dc. They can change their clothes, brush their teeth and take themselves to bed BUT your ex-h isn’t showing them love or care by encouraging them to do these things. He isn’t showing them that he enjoys their company, loves his time with them. That is not acceptable.
They have the right to live in a clean environment and shouldn’t have to live in a dirty house for several days and nights each month.
Talk to your dc, do they really want to stay with their dad, if not what are their reasons and take that back to the court.

Your idea of talking to the 12 year old is good OP. Someone mentioned upthread that children often don't realise something is unacceptable because if it's all they know?....
Why not ring (or email) the NSPCC and get some professional advice about this?
Their number is 0808 800 5000 or emailing them [email protected]

My children brushed their teeth at 7, all 3 of them. Before going in the bath. It's just a habit you get them into doing. Then they do it almost automatically.

Thank you for this, will do this during the week and see how they can help or what advice they can give 😊

Some crazy replies on here. Dch need guidance. Crazy to say that the 12yo could stick their clothes in the washing machine. YANBU. Sounds like their dad doesn't give a monkey's. Personally I would try to stop them going until he pulls his weight.

I think maybe part of the problem is that 3 nights/mornings a week they've never been promoted at his house to brush teeth so its only a habit at my house? As sometimes when I prompt them to brush teeth they hit me with 'but why?!'

Wether they can brush their own teeth and get p.j’s on is beside the point, what responsible adult falls asleep before the children?? Who just abandons the kids straight after dinner? That would drive me nuts! You wrap up the evening prompt bath/shower/wash , check teeth are being brushed hand out pj’s get tucked in kiss goodnight ? My mum worked nights so my dad did bedtime can’t remember everything but I can remember him putting us into bed and kissing us goodnight!

@caringcarer

My children brushed their teeth at 7, all 3 of them. Before going in the bath. It's just a habit you get them into doing. Then they do it almost automatically.

But you got them into the habit. The OP is only responsible for their care two thirds of the time. Instilling good habits requires consistency of application and the OP’s ex clearly isn’t doing this.

I agree. I’m honestly quite shocked that so many people think borderline neglect from a father for this much of the kids lives is OK.

I actually am astounded at the amount of people concentrating on what the children should be able to do at their age. Missing the whole point of the OP 🤦🏻‍♀️ The not brushing teeth, fine yes they should, it doesn’t actually say they don’t, it says that their dad falls asleep and doesn’t brush them. My 11 year old had ADHD and HATES brushing his teeth with a passion. He can’t stand how it feels and we’ve tried all sorts of toothbrushes and toothpastes, so he does have to be told twice a day to brush them or I do them for him because he rushes them and then risks cavities. Not every thing is as straightforward as it is for the next person. Not checking they’re doing their night time routine and ensuring they’re prompted to go to bed…that is neglectful alone, regardless of the shouting and aggression coupled with being incredibly untidy, by the sounds of it. But yes, let’s just put all the responsibility on the kids. It’s borderline victim blaming. This absolutely doesn’t sound like a mother trying to blame their violent exH, this sounds like genuine and valid concern and not being sure how to broach it because of his history with aggression and violence. There’s always more detail to the background of someone’s life and it’s rarely like your own. What I think may not be relevant, but I certainly think the main issue here is how he’s treating the children and then add that to the other signs of neglect, then yes, it’s a very valid concern OP and I would definitely make steps to protect them. If your children are telling you then this is. Red flag. What else might they not be saying?

Doesnt sound nice or good for their self esteem, especially the shouting. Can you dial down his contact with a view to phasing it out?

I don't think the boys should stay over there, especially not on a school night I doubt they can be sleeping well in that environment. Can they go to their dads after school/dinner time then he drops them back.

Unfortunately he may resist this as the CMA calculates maintenance based on where the children slew

A lot of people are objecting to the suggestion that the children could do more for themselves. But what's wrong with teaching them basic life skills so that they are better able to cope around their deadbeat father?

What's the alternative? One possibility is that the OP stops all overnight contact. That would be perfectly valid in light of her concerns, but she might have to fight it out in courts and there is no guarantee that she will win... the dad might put on a good show.

Alternatively, she continues to let them go there and leaves them helpless in his inadequate care. Personally, I think it's preferable to teach them some coping skills so that they can manage basic self care for themselves...12 year old can do a lot for themselves given half a chance, and even the 7yo can be taught to take responsibility for some stuff.

I'm not saying it's right that the dad is a shit parent, of course it isn't. But the OP either needs to stop all overnight contact or teach the kids to be more independent. It seems highly unlikely that he will be persuaded to change.

I'm assuming you are in the UK OP.

You could always call your local Early Help Children's Social Services and speak them them regarding your concerns; they can advise and do a report if necessary.
Have school raised any concerns?

If you have safeguarding concerns you can stop contact with their dad; this may lead to him filing to court and everything that comes with that.

I'm a student social worker and have seen this type of case whilst on placement; sometimes it is taken further, sometimes not. Depends what is found whilst undertaking investigations.

Bloody hell cannot believe the number of posters on here blaming you for babying and saying things like your 12 year old needs a kick in the pants. It's totally normal for kids these ages to need reminders to do things. The fact that they HAVE to put themselves to bed because their parent is conked out on the sofa is utterly depressing. That is so sad for them. Stop blaming OP who is obviously a lovely, caring mum and her poor kids and focus your snidey remarks on her shit excuse for a human ex.