To think this may amount to child neglect?

[ElleC90]

Hi all. Basically what the title suggestions, quick back story. Split from narcissistic, emotionally abusive ex-h end of 2019. He was physically abusive in the end and I left. Have 2 DS, one 12 and one 7. Ex husband is increasingly neglectful towards our children. He has them overnight 3 nights per week 3 weeks of the month and 2 nights per week 1 week of the month. My boys have told me numerous things (not questioned by me just in conversation) that he doesn't brush their teeth, falls asleep straight after dinner and they "put them selves' to bed, is always angry and screaming at them for one thing or another and I have witnessed myself when I pick them up on a Sunday, they are always in the same underwear and socks I put them on over 24 hours earlier before dropping them off to him. On occasion they are both still dressed in the exact same clothes I put on them 24 hours earlier and have told me they've slept in them. His home is so unclean and messy, cant see floor in living room or hallway and cant see kitchen worktops due to amount of crap on them. AIBU to say this amounts to child neglect? I am really concerned this will be messing them up and I just don't think he is looking after them as he should, but don't really know where to go or how I would go about contesting his current access.

Re whether they are happy going to his home, I've tried to have a chat with both of them about whether they are happy there and they both said they know they "need to" see their dad. I don't doubt they love him because they do, I just wish he was a better human being for our sons sakes.

OK, you're entitled to your view.

My dd started doing her own laundry at about 10. She was pretty independent with it by 12. I'm certainly not a neglectful parent! I just didn't want her to grow up like I did with my mum doing way too much for me, because it made life so much harder than it needed to be when I was a young adult.

I was simply trying to help as you seem concerned about them wearing the same clothes. The dad is clearly too lazy to do it, so I was suggesting an alternative.

And yes, I have already agreed that their dad should step up and take more responsibility. At the same time, it sounds to me like you probably baby your 12yo quite a lot...it seems a little unusual for a kid that age to need reminding about something as basic as cleaning his teeth.

Sounds like you’ve both been a bit neglectful in not teaching your children how to keep themselves clean and change their own clothes. Of course their father should be doing more but he isn’t, so for the children’s sake I would be sending them with a bag packed with pyjamas, toothbrushes etc and would be telling them that their teeth must be brushed and clothes changed, no negotiation.

All of it sounds neglectful. Why does he have them so often if he can’t be bothered to look after them? Is it to avoid having to pay maintenance? Maybe call social services and ask their advice, they could check on the state of the house and offer him support with anger management.

Also look into removing the overnight stays. The children need to know there are other options they might not realise they could just see him during the day once or twice a week. If they are in his care he should be caring for them, you shouldn’t have to be providing clean clothes etc to facilitate his laziness/incompetence.

Op I’m so sorry. I’d definitely raise this as it isn’t fair on the children and yes it probably is ‘benign neglect’ along with emotional abuse if they are e if shouted and screamed at.

If you have concerns over their safety whilst at his house absolutely go back to court.

I'm sorry but this whole thread just sounds like you have issues over your husband and you're directing this and finding reasons to stop him seeing his children.

You've already put your kids in conflict by splitting up their homelife in the first place.

Personally, this all sounds quite minor. Not ideal but he's their Dad and if they're happy seeing him, leave it.

Kids go to cub camp and don't wash for a week.

I'm actually very surprised however that a Dad that was physically abusive to their Mum is even allowed to have the children? Were the police not involved?

If they don't have clothes at their dad's house then just pack the clothes they will need. By 12 a child should be able to shower, change clothes daily, clean teeth etc without being told if it has been taught from a young age. I would say a 7 year old needs prompting.

He should not be shouting at them.

Didn't mean to say it, meant to be 'they'.

I think its very reasonable for a 12 year old and 7 year old to clean their teeth change into bed clothes and tell the time to know when its bedtime.

I think the boys are enjoying causing more animosity between you and your ex. You should be asking why your eldest isn't capable of basic routine, he obviously goes to high school, follows a timetable and hopefully responsible for homework and attending lessons?

7 year old has a bit more leeway but should be capable of hygiene.

No the police were not involved in the DV incident. This happened in front of ex husbands sister whilst on a weekend away. I want my kids to have their dad in their life, I want them to have a great relationship with him and I wish I could come on here and say he's a great dad and does everything for them. I want more than anything for them to have the same life I give them in my home when they're with their dad, and I DON'T want to stop contact unless absolutely necessary/I am afraid for their wellbeing which to be honest, I am, and have been for some time. Totally appreciate the comments about babying them and maybe I am come to think of it 🥴 however I need to be clear I'm not trying to stop him seeing them. I would rather have a meeting with him somewhere neutral with someone else present, and ask him to step up and do normal parenting duties. I've text him and asked him multiple times to brush teeth, give clean clothes etc but he denies any wrongdoing. I would love to sing his praises and say he's fantastic with them, unfortunately this isn't the case.

Fair enough, OP. I get your frustration. He sounds like a piss poor dad... maybe time to cut down the overnight stays if the kids aren't too bothered about them.

In the meantime, don't underestimate what your kids can do for themselves... even the 7yo. Think of it as teaching them valuable life skills rather than trying to overcompensate for their lazy-arse dad?

I haven't RTFT, just bits, but I'm completely with you OP, and am sure that there are safeguarding issues here.
If he falls asleep for the evening then he's effectively leaving a 12 yo in charge of a 7 yo.
And goodness knows what emotional stuff is going on.

Do they have unrestricted access to screens at his as well?

He must take them to school some mornings, are they in correct uniform, homework done as necessary?

Saying the "need" to see their dad suggests that's been drilled into them (by him?) and also that they don't like going but are too afraid to say.

How are they emotionally and behaviourally?

You could raise these concerns with a school nurse, parent support advisor, GP or a teacher.

But you'll need to think through how he'll react.

For the sake of your boys I think you need to do something.

It sounds like his conduct and potential mental health issues are the problem.

Practicalities like bedtimes, teeth brushing and supplying of clothes etc could easily be straightened out between the two of you as adults if you could actually have a reasonable conversation with him about co-parenting and he cared about managing it properly between your two households. As it is, having read he physically abused you, he sounds unsafe to be around and like you can't parent your kids together or trust him.

Perhaps if he is moody and volatile the kids don't feel able to act like things are normal and go about their routines as usual if they feel unsafe around him or like they don't know what will happen next. I wouldn't want to get undressed around someone who shouted and screamed and was obviously mentally unwell, as he sounds.

Only OP can know if that is a true representation of how things are, I'm just going on what is in the post.

Yep I think I'll need to have another talk with 12 year old and think about getting him to be more independent. MrsBennettsPoorNerves I also really struggled when I moved into my first home, due to being a spoiled only child so this actually sounds sensible thing to do teaching eldest things he can do himself 😊 12yo is march born, so goes to high school this August (we are scotland based). Yes he takes them to school 2 mornings a week, has made them late once every month since August last year. Doesn't do any homework with them, that's done in my home. 12yo is actually good and will do homework at dads. School rang me in feb saying both boys were sent to school in wet jumpers and youngest was bit agitated by it, when asked ex h he said he washed them at 7am the morning of school and "they didn't dry in time' 🙁

Emotionally 12yo is v sensitive. Always has been but more so now. Has had talking therapy sessions in school and is now much more confident and happy, but still struggles with emotions. 6yo behavior is not good, he is v moody and have been called to school 3 times previously due to his behavior. Youngest is v v like his dad in terms of temperament which worries me also 🙁

I'd expect a 7 and 12 year old to brush their own teeth, shower, change underwear and put on clean clothes in the morning. Clean clothes if necessary, only underwear and socks need changing every day, other clothes if needed. I would expect a 7 year old to be prompted to get ready for bed but they should know what this means.

This behaviour is the same as my ex. It is low level neglect and schools should pick it up but won’t as they have too much to do elsewhere.

I took the view that you teach the kid’s independence and raise things
if you have a real concerns.

good luck!

Agree this is a shit show from Dad and no it shouldn't be down to the kids. However, also like the idea of you teaching them the life skills early as a way to mitigate the worst.

My other question is why is he falling asleep after dinner every night? Does he work shifts / game until late? I have to admit I jumped to drinking and passing out rather than being asleep.

I'll probably be shouted down here but sounds to me like dad - and potentially youngest - could have ADHD.... 🤷🏼‍♀️ Not an excuse but a possible reason!?

We put our boys ‘to bed’ - 15, 13 and 11. Unfortunately they need prompting that it’s time to shower, brush teeth, put devices down and close the lights. Perhaps we baby them 🤷‍♀️as we also go in their rooms, have a little chat, kiss and hug. It only takes a few minutes, but they expect this routine. If one of them is tired and in bed, they’ll shout out ‘mum, dad can one of you put me to bed please?’

We also shout out ‘don’t forget to put deodorant on! You’ve got PE!’ But that’s us…

Should mention, have had to go no contact with exh due to constant nasty calls and messages as he wanted to change the days he has our sons. When I said no, he flipped and said he then couldn't have them on certain days. All contact now goes through my mum.

I think he is most likely depressed, however is the type of man that will not admit this and would never ever get help even though it may be needed.

Doesnt sound like he could care for a pot plant let alone two children.

12 y o sounds like they need a kick in the pants!

Why aren't they packing a rucksack witb pjs, toothbrush, clean pants & tshirt etc in when they know they are going overnight?

He does sound like a shit lazy dad but I'm not sure if it is bad enough to be neglect (in a safeguarding sense).

The 12 year old should be able to put himself to bed and know that you have to change your clothes and shower and put on fresh clothes every morning. I'd expect a child of that age to pretty much manage their own bedtime/morning routine.

The 7 year old is borderline, yes their dad should be helping them get ready for bed - but I would start teaching him to be a bit more responsible for himself and to be able to brush his own teeth and change his clothes.

So I used to do this, and found that any clothes I put in bags were swiftly removed and not returned. Any PE kit/changes I put in school bags are also removed and not returned. I could put PJs clothes pants etc in bags, I would be buying new ones every week for them to take as they'd not be returned unfortunately.

Yes, I also think they both have ADHD but was also scared of being shot down in comments lol.