AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

All of that is terrible.

But worse than being dead?

This is appalling

This was during peak lockdown, what do you think they'd have referred to?

Yes, a dead fetus does not justify her children, and her, having to endure this.

I was thinking along similar lines.

She'll be eligible for release halfway through, but imo she shouldn't be in prison at all.

I wonder if she might appeal the sentence?

Don't be so utterly ridiculous.

Imagine what the kids are missing out on now with their mother in prison?!

My mum had an abortion before having me. I have never once in my life wondered what life would have been like with my "sibling". I don't have an older sibling. Never did. Before I understood what abortion was it didn't make sense to me. It was just something that adults would talk about from time to time. After I understood what abortion was it was an unwanted fetus, not a sibling.

im astounded that so many people think its ok for a woman to alone kill a foetus/baby at 32 weeks pregnant without any consequences, that is pure barbarism in my view. Pr abortion is one thing, pro this behavior is quite another, absolutely right that anyone who does this is punished by law, the law exists for a reason. If it only deters others from making these mad decisions its worth it. Horrible story all over

But yes, at least they are alive. What a cold dismissal of possibly the worst thing that will ever happen to them.

I think being killed by your mother is worse than your mother going to prison.

But your mother going to prison for killing your sibling is a terrible terrible thing.

Just not as bad as being dead

You're missing the context. Again the real crime was the lack of access to abortion services during lockdown.

None of us can know what being dead is like. We do know for sure though that these living children are going to suffer a lot because of the imprisonment of their mother. It's callous to dismiss that suffering by saying that at least they are alive.

How old are the other 4 kids?

She knew she was pregnant for at least 3 months. I had a scan during that time for endo. NHS services were restricted but still available, she could even have been sectioned as a risk to her own health. But perhaps she didn't call GP, we don't know.

I agree with all of this post.

But I think she must have been in a terrible state mentally to do what she did. She has had babies before - she will have know the likelihood of viability. I truly think the "balance of her mind" as they say, was disturbed. No good will come of jailing her - and a lot of ill might.

Is her husband/partner on the scene does anyone know (apologies if this has been asked and answered).

I'm very conflicted by the ruling too.

I absolutely feel sorry for the children who will now be deprived of their mother for more than two years. (Off the subject but will this be reduced down significantly - did I read somewhere that it's usually a third of the maximum sentence?)

And absolutely lockdown took a terrible toll on some. The full effects of the pandemic won't be felt for many years. I can't imagine how desperate she felt.

And yet.

The foetus was viable and would probably have comfortably survived if it had been born. At that point in the womb, babies are capable of feeling emotions, and feeling pain. It may not be legally infanticide but she killed a baby, albeit in utero. The end would not have been swift, or painless.

Are we honestly saying that causing the cessation of breathing, and inflicting pain is OK providing the baby hasn't yet drawn breath? Because that's why we have abortion limits, isn't it? Because we know that beyond a certain term, abortions are cruel - and that's with the relatively pain-free medical approach. Certainly not taking tablets that would have caused a slow and drawn out death.

I'm not anti-abortion but I really do think this isn't just a case of wringing our hands and saying "oh that poor woman".

We have laws in this country to prevent inflicting pain and suffering on others, and in late pregnancy, I think that applies to unborn babies too. She may have been desperate but it was unspeakably cruel.

I think 28 months custodial sentence is too long but I think there has to be some consequences for this.

You’re of course welcome to think that.

I personally would much prefer a dead fetus over my mother being sent to prison. Indeed, my mother has had an abortion, and I can’t say I’ve ever considered or ‘missed’ a ‘sibling’ at all.

None of us can know what being dead is like.

And yet we view having your life taken away as the worst thing that can happen.

I'm not dismissing the other children's suffering I've said it's a terrible terrible thing, but not as bad as being killed.

Yes better for you.
Not better for the fetus.

They'll be more upset about their mum not being around for 2 years.

Do we really? Actually I think we do in fact recognise that there are worse things than death, and whether killing is unlawful or not depends very much upon the context.

And?

If the poor woman had been able to get a legal termination, they probably would never had known that they had a potential sibling to miss.

They'll certainly know when they don't get to see their mum for at least 14 months.

During peak lockdown there was a hit and run in my village, on the high street near the GP’s surgery. The staff refused to come out to assist the victim because of Covid. The ambulance also refused to attend because of Covid. Do you really think there was any help available for pregnant women at that time? As I said, people have forgotten what it was like!

It usually takes 2 to make a baby

No consequences for the father ?

This is so dehumanising to say "just a dead fetus". Why is the baby any less alive because it's in the womb?? The fetus is viable, it has a heartbeat it has brain functions.

I remember being small and being excited for my "baby sister" to come. Had she passed away from a miscarriage I (probably) would have been sad as a child. As I grew up I would have deeply missed the sister I never had

Completely agree. We send far too many people to prison. It's an expensive waste of time and benefits no one except the right wing press