AIBU to think throwing a mum-of-four in prison for having an abortion is never the answer?

[therescoffeeinthatnebula]

Spotted this on Twitter and haven't seen it already being discussed.

Apparently, a woman is being sentenced today for having an abortion over the limit during lockdown. I don't know of the circumstances (can't find anything other than the Sunday Times article), only that she already had four children and claims she didn't know exactly how far along she was.

I think most of us would agree making medical appointments during lockdown was bloody difficult and that it's even harder to attend any appointment if you have children, given you're not normally allowed to take them with you.

Whatever the truth, I'm appalled to see a woman potentially thrown in prison for trying to seek an abortion during lockdown, especially when you look at how violence against women is treated. I'd have thought referring her for mandatory counselling would be more of an appropriate outcome than prison because finding out you aborted what could have been a viable baby has got to mess with anyone's head.

It's all very sad - she should have been able to access proper services earlier - but prison, to me, should never have been on the table as a consequence.

I didn't actually realise that abortion in this country was blanket illegal and that our rights to seek abortions up to the limit are actually exceptions to that law rather than a piece of legislation that stands on its own.

@SpidersAreShitheads I think we absolutely do need to say, "oh, that poor woman." We don't know the full circumstances, but we do know she didn't feel able to have a fifth baby, that she was in her 40s, it was peak lockdown, and one of her children had SEN. It's fairly clear that whatever additional truths existed, she was not a woman with an easy set of circumstances.

I think what is more important is to ask, "but what led to this, and how could we prevent it?"

I'm willing to bet having four children, of whom one had SEN, made childcare for appointments difficult. Can we do anything about that? From time to time, we see women on MN saying that they can't get childcare for a medical appointment and don't know what to do, having been told they can't bring their kids to the appointment.

Can we remove that barrier? Can we create some type of short-term childcare where an appropriately checked/trained person at a clinic/hospital will sit with your children for 15 minutes?

Can we decriminalise abortion so that more medical professionals are willing to provide abortion services and as such, more appointments are available sooner in the pregnancy?

Can we improve mental health services? Respite care for carers?

What can we do?

Because we should be doing something, not sending a mum to prison for making a flawed decision using a very difficult time.

Well the decisions after the legal limit should take into account the rights of both/ all children.

You can't justify killing a baby at 34 weeks because it's preferable for the other children.
As the judge has recognised.

This baby mattered as do the other children.

Agree with every word of this.

It really doesn't seem ideal, to be the unwanted, unplanned fifth child born during lockdown to a mother who desperately didn't want you, and who already has four other children to take care of, including one with additional needs. From what you're saying, so you not agree with abortion in any circumstance? If any life is preferable to not being born?

So you don’t think context means anything then?
So, presumably, in that case, you would also think that it was entirely appropriate to hand down a 20 year sentence to 17 year old Pieper Lewis and to decree she paid the family of her victim $150,000.00, yes? And if you don’t know who she is, Google it, read her story, and decide whether or not context meant that the sentencing and monetary damages are acceptable in a, supposedly, civilised world. And if you do, then I don’t think any of us can help you tbh.

Given that the woman had been Googling "how to conceal a pregnancy" I very much doubt her existing children were eagerly awaiting the birth of their sibling.

Do we know how far into lockdown the pills-by-post service was initialized? As the woman had also Googled how to induce miscarriage over a period of time I'm struggling to believe she knew this service was available to her early on in her pregnancy or that she knew she was pregnant early enough to make use of it.

How can they be sure who searched what on any devices ?

No, I have no issue recognising the fetus as human. I don’t however consider this to be particularly important when ‘the womb’ is in fact part of the body of someone else, who absolutely should retain full bodily autonomy regardless of whether they’re pregnant or not.

Like I said, I’ve never given a single shit over my mother having an abortion. It was entirely up to her as it concerned her body, whether I wanted a sibling or not would have been entirely irrelevant.

Infanticide is the intentional killing of a born child under the age of one year. Late-term abortion, whether you disapprove of it or not, is not infanticide.

The judge signalled for the need for reform, a campaign for which is already underway. Hopefully it will soon be the case that no woman will legally have to endure what this one did 🙂

Have found some additional details here that Hannah Al-Othman didn't report: https://www.nationalworld.com/news/crime/women-jailed-prison-illegal-abortion-england-lockdown-4179253

It's even sadder.

I agree. I bet that she gave inaccurate information to the provider as well. At 28 weeks pregnant, you know about it, especially after 4 children.

That said, I don't think she should be jailed and I think that generally, telemedicine is great and should stay. I just think the fact the CPS have decided to prosecute make me think there's an awful lot more to this and the likes of Stella Creasey screaming about how appalling it is isn't necessarily helpful.

Marvellous, the forced birthers are here

The huge irony is if she’d delivered the baby and smothered it in an act of infantcide she’s have likely got a suspended sentence with the MH support she likely needs.

How would you have felt if you were the abortion?

Like I assume you've had a good life (obviously not perfect no one's is) , had good memories that you cherish. Imagine if all that was just gone in an instant (or never occured). The impact you've had on people , never happened.

Ridiculous isn't it.

No it's far from ideal.

But I'm against aborting 34 week fetus'because they're being born into less than ideal situations.

Loads of babies are born into less than ideal situations I wouldn't advocate killing them before they're born.

I'm for abortion on-demand before 12 weeks, in some circumstances up to 24 weeks, and extremely rare endangering life circumstances beyond that.

I find the concept of killing viable babies very distressing and the arguments that you're better off dead than having a less than ideal life both immoral and illogical.

Bloody hell. Very sad.

This is such a sad situation. Not read the full thread but is there anything about whether she tried to access other abortion services earlier and was turned away. If her "culpability" is in part based on her being quite confident of how many weeks she was does this either mean she'd waited a long time? Tried other options and been turned away?

Sectioned? For wanting a termination and not being able to get one? WTAF?

You may not be aware, but MH acute services are stretched beyond belief. There are times when the nearest acute bed available isn't even in the same region as where I live. Community MH teams are under so much pressure that they still seem to be monitoring most of their caseloads by phone, not F2F, and they are carrying massive caseloads that are unmanageable.

When even people who are very, very unwell can't get a bed in a psych unit, do you really think sectioning someone for wanting to terminate a pregnancy is a sensible use of resources?

*How would you have felt if you were the abortion?

Like I assume you've had a good life (obviously not perfect no one's is) , had good memories that you cherish. Imagine if all that was just gone in an instant (or never occured). The impact you've had on people , never happened.*

Oh what an absolutely stupid comment. You wouldn't know any different so I doubt anyone would care. You can't miss what you never had.

No one loves abortion of a baby over the limit, but throwing her in prison is definitely not the answer. Is the issue that it would be a crueller abortion that way due to the age that purely she didn’t have a ‘reason’ for aborting late?

Wouldn’t have lived a life to miss, or indeed felt at all. On account of being a fetus. And dead. 🥴

But that doesn't make any logical sense. How can you think "any horrible life is better than being aborted" for a 24 week old fetus but support on demand abortion for less than 12 weeks? Is it some kind of ensoulment belief?

I agree there definitely needs to be a limit, I’m sorry. Yes in some situations a newborn baby has priority over a woman. Yes the trauma might kill her, but if a baby is full term then that’s the tragedy.