To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

You are a convert to Islam in a country where women and men have equal rights. You are in a position of privilege. You did not grow up in a household where at best your parents frowned at you for not quickly covering your hair or hiding away if a male visitor came to the house, you did not have your brother escort you when you went outside whilst he was free to go out anytime. You did not spend several hours of the week as a child studying Islam and the teacher telling you a man can hit a disobedient wife and that the angels will curse you if you refuse sex with your husband. You did not live through religious trauma where fear of hell and death was weaponised against you to keep you in control, so spare me the “free choice” you keep bleating about.

so like other religions (Christianity for one) there are some sub streams of Islam that are more lgbtq friendly. But the mainstream view again like Christianity is that acting on homosexual desires is ‘sinful’. I think it gets problematic when islam is singled out and made to seem like it’s the only religion with homophobia where it just isn’t.

i think Islam is attacked really regularly, perhaps not in the life of Brian way (which would be a welcome break) but in the enemy from within way, this whole what what Muslims really think way. Muslims are ridiculed a lot but not in the jovial sense

But I did make a free choice.

I’m sorry you were exposed to a very backwards view of the deen.

Because they see it as an actual crime to joke about Islam, so why would people be jovial about it? Look at the Charlie Hebdo attacks because of a drawing....

And you're painting a VERY different picture of Islam to the one I've been introduced to.

One Muslim friend, ex friend now, told me my brother deserved to die because he is gay. This friend was born and raised in the UK, by parents who were also born and raised here.

In Istanbul, 7 years ago so before it got really hard line, I was given a book by the barber on "how to be a good wife" which included rules such as never complaining, never refusing sex, don't mind if your husband has sex else where.

How do these conflate with what you're saying?

Islam is far more extreme than other religions in terms of "their way or no way" which is perhaps why this "islamaphobia" is present. Muslims won't compromise, so like humans do, we argue back?

Women's rights are very recent and very fragile in the UK; marital rape was legal until very recently, and it's not long since men would openly advocate hitting women. Abortion rights are recent, as are maternity rights. Women are still victim-blamed for dressing the wrong way or going to the wrong places. We have to cover our bodies in public because breasts are, what, immoral? The pay gap is real. Sexual harassment is real. Men and women are NOT equal. How about we sort our own shit before pointing fingers at hijabs?

Mainstream Christianity, at least in the UK, is becoming more and more Liberal towards homosexuality. An increasing number of churches and denominations perform same sex marriages and have openly gay clergy. Is the same true of Islam?

Are Muslim women not part of “we”

That's because Islam literally looks back to a "golden" age as the ideal model for society. Judaism has a tradition of rule interpretation (by male scholars though) and Christianity was ever a collection of whatever fit from Roman rule and society. Though they might be more flexible it would be very wrong to suppose any of those faiths are for women, they were by and for men. The club if you like for the elite and those elite were not women, the elite owned women and slaves, alongside their livestock, children etc - the religion was the male choice and imposed. Sure you can cite exceptions but these were women with privilege in those societies and women in the modern versions of those faiths are still exceptions because they have a privileged background.

In this context, by "we" I'm referring to non-Muslim people, yes. I can be an ally to Muslim women without having to speak on their behalf.

But Is it not possible that you’ve been introduced to an extremist one?

muslims are not to mock anyone because of what they believe, and we basically expect the same back. There’s a famous saying that’s basically along the lines of those who mock you, don’t sit with them. We’re advised to basically ignore it, not retaliate and kill people.

i don’t think your ex friend was a very nice person

and that guide for wives seems very red pill alpha male rather than Islam. Having sex outside of marriage is a huge huge sin to say the least.

i don’t think Islam is our way or the right way; it’s actually ‘to you your beliefs and to me mine’

^ our way of the wrong way sorry

I don't think Christianity is more Liberal. It was created in a complex social / religious environment that dressed itself up in trends, it is still doing so. However, the aim hasn't changed. This more liberal C of E still has a higher take up in middle class areas - still just privilege in action.

Have you encountered literally any other culture, religion, belief system where this isn't the case?! Hate to break it to you but this is hardly limited to one particular religion or culture. Just take a quick look at the culture of porn and how it's affecting school aged children in the UK, for a start....

Thats simply not true.

the church or England does not perform gay marriage. I have a friend who is a priest and he was very cross about this, there may be some priests who are more open and will do blessings but the institution does not permit gay marriage.

there’s are gay mosques, but they are a minority. But i will say what is conceived of as gay is quite interesting in some Muslim countries, i recall watching a documentary called ‘how gay is Pakistan’ and it was about a very prominent gay subculture of men who wouldn’t conceive of themselves as gay, engaging in behaviour that in the west we would very much consider gay. It reminded me of a gender studies module I audited about cultural distinction on homosexuality.

there are openly gay Muslims and Muslims who’ve had gay weddings with the typical (in the case im thinking of asian)cultural pomp. These haven’t been nikahs though

Islam, like any religion, should be open to criticism.

Excellently written!

Really then what do they believe? I’m really interested in this now!

I went to school with girls of all religions and none. I know which girls had their lives completely controlled and mapped out for them. Hint: it wasn’t the atheists.

How can this be?

Most Christian churches in UK and Europe used to insist or teach or expect women to wear a hat. My Mother and her sisters in CoE for instance.
But these rules are now cancelled.
Similarly and a more serious topic was the ordination of women. I think The Congregational Church started ordaining women from 1920. Church of England only recently.
Progress has been made, not to follow fashion or a trend but new thinking on What is important. Head covering was not very important.
Always willing to consider and argue new ideas. Even if very seriously biblical.

Is there a modernist movement in Islam?

What's not true? I never said the CofE performed same sex marriages (yet) but multiple other denominations do. And the church of England now allow blessings of same sex marriages. Baby steps, but they're going in the right direction.

Anyway, homophobia in one religion hardly makes homophobia in other religions any better.

Indeed. Much like the UK and France etc being held accountable for colonialism and slavery all religions should be judged for their histories of the subjugation of women, children, nations etc. We should be able to question organisations, consider their benefit or harm.

Hmm.. That's very odd to my mind. A Christian can't compel others to like Christianity. I objectively don't like the teachings of Islam. There's a big difference between that and wishing harm on Muslim people.

No it doesn’t make one homophobic religion better than the other but often it’s made out the Islam is the only religion that ‘opposes’ (awful term, sorry) homosexuality where as this isn’t the case

I think it’s if you actively dislike Islam and ridicule it and or attack it or go out of your way to point out how backward it is.

if you don’t believe in it because of xyz reason, then whatever who cares, it’s your right