To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

I don’t follow this. Counter to western culture and the pressure to look a certain way. To assert your Muslim ness in a culture that wants to hide it away or make it lesser.

i think women all over are making hijabs their own, the designs, styles (some of which ‘go against’ what’s considered ‘proper hijab’) and are reclaiming what it means to be a Muslim woman in the 21c and redefining it in many ways. I think there is power there

I think we safe into murky territory of we consider criticism of a religion as a phobia and hence in the same bracket as hard crime. We have had a long history of criticising Christianity more recently through the like of Life of Brian, Father Ted, the Hand Maids tale etc. and I think society (and Christianity) has become stronger as a result. If you look at countries where criticism of religion (or secular leadership) is absolutely forbidden e.g. China, North Korea, Iran, Afghanistan I personally am reasonably happy in a society where open and free criticism (though not hatred) of religion is tolerated.

The thing I find absolutely bizarre is banning women (like in France) from wearing a head covering because said head covering is a sign of the oppression of women. So you are forcing women to dress a particular way because you think they shouldn't be forced to dress in a different particular way? It's so non sensical I even have trouble formulating my point.

Apart from that I am no fan of religion. I think it has outlasted its purpose (of bringing large groups of humans together and making them cooperate as it did at the dawn of civilisation) and I think the concept of Faith (aka blind belief) is making the world a worse place to live.

Most religions are dictatorships and cults. I disagree with most of their teachings, particularly any that put stipulations on how a woman should dress. I don't believe in the anti-abortion ideas of Christianity. I don't agree with the polygamy of Mormonism.

At school my Muslim best friend was treated very differently by her family to her twin brother. She had many social restrictions placed on her that weren't placed on her brother. It felt to me as though she lost a lot of her freedom and rights from her teenage years onwards.

I also believe it's to do with patriarchal control. Just as much as dressing in skimpy sexually attractive and revealing clothes are - just on the opposite end of the spectrum.

“To right wing men, we are private property. To left wing men, we are public property."

I think this applies across cultures and religions, conservatives and liberals

I have put the link up to a video by Dina Tokio, a popular Muslim influencer detailing the abuse she received for removing her hijab. Slut, whore are common insults Muslim women receive for deciding how they should dress.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i3kIJd-_yiY&pp=ygUUZGluYSB0b2tpbyBoaWphYiBvZmY%3D

Women might choose to wear a headscarf, some women choose the 'trad wife' trend as well. But they are going to get some push back, because choosing to hide yourself yes a valid option and perhaps a response to the objectification of women but it is also privilege when so many women are forced into marginalised roles and of course, its then contradictory, it becomes a political statement and not a choice of modesty, or opting for tradition but asserting individual liberty. Very complex. It'd be great if all women were able to not have to consider whether a scrap of fabric has meaning be that meaning religious, moral, cultural, political or social. That isn't the world we inhabit though, it's all the more complicated by women in positions of relative luxury trying to rationalise all of this vs women without that liberty or luxury.

No you use that term to try and silence theological debate. I would never say anything to a Muslim about their religion but yes I don't believe in it. I don't like the attitudes in some circles about kuffar (disbelievers) how they are destined for jahannam hell but yet happily live in the land of the kuffar. It makes no sense to me not all Muslims are like this but some are and its hidden but its quite a widespread belief in those circles.

its completely fine to not believe in Islam, or not be on board with certain things theologically, it is simply because you don’t believe, for whatever reason. That’s fine. Islam actually points that out, we’re allowed to believe and hold dear different things.

the problem is holding prejudice because of it, or holding some inaccurate and ignorant views of what Muslims believe, because there’s not excuse for total ignorance in this day and age, google is free. Or the insistence that all Muslim women are oppressed and cannot possibly choose something you don’t agree with despite them explicitly telling you that they have chosen.

A lot of this is cultural though - It's not always about religion. My DH is Hindu and the only son. He's treated extremely differently to his sisters. His family forbid him from helping with domestic chores for example. He is also expected (as the son) to offer financial assistance to his parents and sisters, despite his sisters earning well.
I also know a Mexican woman (catholic) whose family treat her and her brother differently.
I lived in Spain for 2 years as an au-pair and the daughter was treated very differently to the son.
Women are treated differently all over the world.

@Lesschubtolove

I think this is a question of motivation. Western culture obviously has its own tensions and debates about dress but could you say Western women have less pressure in a certain way.

If a devout Muslim woman would wish to wear a hijab that makes certain sense in much the as me way you may wear a cross. The question though is whether a the human is a symbol of personal devotion of one that is a societal norm a young Muslim woman would find it difficult to deviate from.human

by asserting Muslim belonging is there an assumption that the rest of the community is being oppressive?

But why would you want to ridicule other people's faiths? My Judaism is the most dear and important thing in my life after my children. It's everything to me. My ancestors died for it. Why should I accept ridicule and anti-Semitism?

No, it’s not a theological debate but if you actively not like Islam then yeah you’ve got some prejudice against it.

well there’s debate on heaven and hell and who goes there and who doesn’t. But surely it’s not that shocking that a faith group thinks their religion is the right one and the one that one needs to follow to go to heaven?

think you’re glossing over the reason that there are sizeable Muslim communities in non Muslim countries- colonialism

It clearly is a choice if there many Muslim women choosing not to wear it. At the end of the day that is between them and God.
You speak of potential shaming from the community but if you as a non Muslim woman were to adopt a similar style to Muslim women you would be shamed from your community too. It works both ways.
I used to be a non Muslim woman. I converted to Islam at the age of 16 and have never looked back since.
The majority of those accepting Islam are actually middle class white women and the numbers are only increasing. If Islam was so oppressive it wouldn't be the case.
Just on the thread yesterday there were many many women stating they see white women in hijab often. That wasn't the case a decade ago.
My point is if you all for women's rights then that includes the rights of women who choose to cover as well. You can't be for one and not the other.
When it comes to patriarchy then we need to closer to home because it is very much imbedded in western society. Look at the fashion and beauty industry, the advertisement industry .. all to please men.

Yes I've read a few posts today but its wrapped up in concern or in the name of feminism .

The human is a symbol?

I think personally there are certain aspects of being a western secular woman (as I once was) are oppressive. The body pressure to be bikini body ready for one

I'm not a Muslim and agree with you.

It's possible to respect a woman's choice to dress a certain way, whilst also being willing to engage with broader debates about patriarchy and socialisation.

What I struggle with on Mumsnet is that women who choose to wear hijab or dress in a way that meets their personal modesty standards/their personal faith convictions get attacked in quite a nasty way, but on any thread about girls clothing anything other than celebrating young children dressed according to very western, sexualised and stereotypical views of femininity is met with cries that it's empowering for girls to wear crop tops and anything they want should be off limits for discussion or you're a pervert that sexualised children.

Too often on here empowerment only goes in one direction: the one where girls and women are socialised to wear fewer clothes than boys/men, and socialised to meet western patriarchal expectations of female beauty.

Totally agree OP. I’m from a community that used to be demonised in the press, by British people. Judging everyone by the actions of the few.
now they’ve moved on to Muslims instead, but it’s the same in a different form. Assuming all Muslim people behave and think the same way and judging while communities on the bad behaviour of a few, or on stereotypes.

mashallah, we’ll said sis! Thank you

@PurpleChrayne

Where is the line though? There is a lot of literature and art that makes light fun of religious and cultural practice e.g the afore mentioned Father Ted. Should this be banned? Doesn't it strengthen a religion to have the ability to mock itself (gently) yet retain its strength?

I am critical of ALL religion. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe. I am free to be critical of those beliefs.

Of course you are, you can’t fake belief in something to appease people, nor should you.

but then there’s criticism which is ok, but hopefully you’d concede if you had misunderstood something. And if you were to target a specific faith group and mock and taunt them for the religion that would be prejudice

Okay so moving away from the hijab and women's oppression....

What about the views on homosexuality?

Why should Islam be held above other religions, that are ridiculed openly and blatantly?

Why is the dislike of a religion a "phobia"

As an atheist, I obviously, don't believe in God and think all religions are abhorrent. However, I will defend anyone's right to hold belief and be religious.

I just don't believe it should be a "protected" status. To be religious, is a choice after all. Unlike being a woman/ethnic minority/homosexual/disabled.

@Lesschubtolove

Sorry typo!

I think pressure to dress in a certain way by any society is to be avoided as this is oppressive. If a hijab is worn for personal religous reasons or as a fashion statement that is all well and good. The problem is that in some societies the human has been associated with oppression and how do we as a society gain confidence that all Muslim women are truly free in their decision making. I agree there is cultural pressure for Western women to have a certain body image and wear certain clothing (I think this may be age related).

It’s incredibly patronising I agree. And seen from a very western viewpoint.