To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

I agree with this, although I have started to think a lot of women look really good in masculine clothing, like Annie Lennox and Kathleen Stock. It isn't that I'm defining it as male power dressing, more that they look so comfortable and so rebellious against the feminine norms of 'pretty'.

@Lesschubtolove Thank you for your comment a while back. I think Greer's point that equality is the wrong goal is really interesting, unfortunately she doesn't get much airtime these days. People disagree with her but she's still an important thinker.

According to the articles I read yesterday Muhsin Hendricks was taken out of the fold of Islam for starting an lgbt friendly mosque

well even if we accept the premise of being gay being a sin, it is like any other sin even grave ones like murder, you are still a Muslim if you commit murder, so I can’t see why being gay would be any different (this is IF we accept the premise of being actively gay is a sin). It doesn’t involve putting others before allah or associating partners with Allah

@AnonyMenOhPee If someone believes in Allah, believes in The Prophet, Peace Be Upon Him, as The Messenger of Allah and believes in the Last Day, then they're Muslim. It's not for anyone else to decide. It's between a person and God.

No, that is not what I’m saying, and you’re either being disingenuous or you’re not very bright- which is it?

I'm saying that many of the values that are reflected in the way women are treated in Islam reflect attitudes and practices which are very outdated in the west.

Soooo, just come back to this, but why should the wife get less than she is entitled to and why should she stay reliant on her family for support? It’s not just me who commented on this, me and my boss. I haven’t looked into this but it could be an Indian/Pakistani/UAE cultural expectation, I don’t know.

The reason why I was being passive aggressive about this as I felt you were on replying and also to my comment on France being a secular country society which it is. I’m sure France will address rights reasons to have refugees in its country following the tragedy in Annency yesterday.

Actually in the scenario I mentioned before, there were no “joint assets” for the sisters (who were both married with children) the sisters attended with their brothers and husbands, they may have got 1/8th etc. it was nothing financial including property would be left to them as their male relatives would provide for them and care for them. This was all set out in letters and presumably a will if we drew this up for them all.

Sooo, just to come back to this, what are people's thoughts on the actual examples of Islamophobia experienced and witnessed by women in this thread?

Because in a thread about Islamophobia, it might be refreshing to actually talk about Islamophobia. People who say they'd support someone's right to be Muslim and practise their faith, what do you think would be helpful things? Do you have any questions about how posters have experienced discrimination?

Also keen to know this, both in the context of overt exacts of anti Muslim hatred and micro aggression Muslims (especially women) experience on an almost daily basis.

from posts early on in the thread it would seem it doesn’t count or matter because Muslims have done bad things too 🤷‍♀️

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

I suspect the reason the men in that situation arranged things so that the women would get less than the minimum standard was the reason that men have been doing similarly shtty things to women throughout history and across all cultures: because the men may well have been shtty people who thought they could get away with doing a sh*tty thing.

Ok, apparently asterixes bold text. I didn't know that. I'll add that to my list of things I've learned from this thread, right under my newly discovered obligations regarding rodent consumption.

You ever lived in France? I have, and let me tell you la laïcité is a beating stick towards minorities, especially Muslims and Jews. That’s why they banned anything but speedos and swimming costumes in pools (Ie board shorts and swim dresses or burkinis) and no religions are taught in schools except for the bible and Christianity because it’s a text.

I think your boss would using this to exploit vulnerable women. Top bloke. I’ve explained upthread why this was the way in an ancient society, but for many this just isn’t applicable today.

brief summary of salient points for context of the time of those revelations; pre Islamic Arabia was a brutal time to be a woman, traded like cattle, baby girls murdered women had no rights to money at all, islam changed that but in the context of the time without infrastructure like we have today, most jobs were trading, working the land, battle, farming etc, men were typically (although not always , Khadija for instance) the ones who worked, women for many reasons safety being one had a more traditional role in society ie a more domestic role. Thus why islamically it is for the males to provide for women, which is the basis as to why a female inherits less as she doesn’t have to spend any money on anyone except herself whereas the male has to support his family and female relatives if they are unmarried. But this isn’t the way the world works today for the most part. So arguably it’s not really applicable anymore

I wore loosd tracksuit bottoms and a t-shirt today with trainers. I didn’t give a shit I don't dress for the male gaze it's up to me what I wear but I won't cover my hair because I don't understand how men could get uncontrollable lust from seeing my hair. I wear what I like, I think if women want to cover to feel closer to God fair enough I dislike making myself feeling uncomfortable and hot to stop men feeling horny. That's their issue.

I don't mind any religion as long as it doesn't affect me, you should be free to worship, free to wear whatever you like if that's hijab or niqab go ahead.
I don't like people trying to convert me or discussing religion. I don't care I'm a kuffar and I don't care I'm going to meet the supposed hell fire. Keep it to yourselves , I don't talk about religion in my everyday life.

But even more educated Muslim people that I’ve met have offended me for example by saying that I should ‘revert’. They see no value in other religious schools of thought and yet expect people to respect their own beliefs. Coming into my home criticising christianity (there is plenty to criticise ) but not recognising that there are issues with their own religious belief or being prepared to talk about them. Just saying that you can’t be a good mother if you are not an Islamic mother

I grew up in holy Catholic Ireland - lots of guilt, lots of repression, lots of sin.

I'm now believe that nearly all religions are at heart repressive, and Islam is particularly authoriatarian, patriarchal and has in built misogyny. I have the same view of extreme orthodox Judaism and fundamentalist Christianity.

Religious people demand respect and special treatment, I respect none of them for simply believing in whatever God is it.

Well that’s because and I’m sure you know they’re trying to invite you to Islam because they think there’s a reward in the hereafter for them if they do. This grinds my gears for several reasons, they might be educated a bit but they probably aren’t in theology. I remember someone giving me dawah because they assumed I was a non Muslim before I wore the scarf and they argued Jesus didn’t drink alcohol in the bible , irritated because I hate being bullshitted I said but it literally says he drank wine in the bible, in fact he turned water to wine, and the bloke said oh yeah well wine didn’t have alcohol in back then… I had to point out that that was incorrect and if wine back then had no alcohol why is it haram?! I digress.

but it grinds my gears because you’re meant to show people what Islam is like with manners and good graces, not through nagging and demeaning someone else’s religion- in fact you shouldn’t do this at all as a Muslim. It’s really explicit. But let’s say you were interested, these people would be egging you on until you said your shahada, they’d be your besties, always checking in, but as soon as you said it, bam dust in the wind. Even worse if you fell on hardship in your life and needed support. They might even be the kind who think converts aren’t real Muslims- I’ve encountered them too

Do people trying and convert you often?

Hopefully they don’t go in with a threat of if you don’t you’ll stay a kafir (kuffar is plural) and go to hell…

People do try to convert. And the term ‘revert’ is just really bloody offensive

Well, that's... something.

1. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else.

1. You've come into a thread about Islamophobia to tell people that you don't like discussing religion? Umm... you don't have to discuss religion, nobody's making you. This is an odd thread to comment in about not wanting to discuss religion as it was probably pretty clear from the thread title that the thread might include people talking about religion.

1. I don't think a single Muslim poster here has made any comments about hellfire or anything like that, or called anyone insults like that. I think you might be perceiving attacks where there are none. If anyone has said that insult to you, then please challenge them on it as that's a very unkind thing to say to someone.

@Lesschubtolove I would also like to add balance to my comments though - I do have some lovely Muslim friends and they have not tried to convert me. We do not talk much about religion but we have a lot on common having families and careers and all the stress that can entail and have interesting conversations about travel and language.
I also work with people who have ‘escaped’ from Iran and it sounds bloody barbaric there.

Saaammme I really hate it, I find it patrionising and a misunderstanding of the concept of fitrah which is god consciousness.

to me it connotes someone as a second tier Muslim