To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

I dont want to get into a squabble over the translation, the main point of the verse is that Muslim women should wear the veil to avoid harassment. Do you not see it as victim blaming?

this sounds prejudice

all muslim women absolutely do not ‘have to’ stay at home, veil, have arranged marriages (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with btw). Yes some women are forced to stay at home or forced to dress a certain way by their partners but this isn’t exclusively a Muslim problem.

The Muslim women I know are lawyers and doctors. Not all wear the scarf although some choose to themselves. I don't know any Muslim women who are forced to stay at home.

We should also not ignore harmful practices against girls and women and the restrictions placed upon them in fear of being called “Islamophobic”.

Then you need to find out more about the wider world.

No I don’t , I see it as, as domany tafsirs, that sadly women have been rebuking unwanted attention from men for hundreds of years

Or perhaps you do! How many Muslim women do you know in the UK/ west that aren’t permitted to leave the home?

I don’t think disagreeing with certain aspects of religion and religious practices is a phobia. I respect people’s right to practice whatever religion they like but that doesn’t mean I have to respect the religion itself, or the way in which a person follows it. I don’t agree with plural marriage but that doesn’t make me Mormonphobic or Islamophobic, even though some Mormons and some Muslims go in for it. A lot of religion is pretty daft.

I know it happens but this is not a problem distinct to Islam cultures. My in-laws are Hindu and I've heard of Indian women (within the wider family) being forced to stay at home. I've also heard of it happening in other countries and cultures including in some Christian communities. Sexism exists in many places yet people think this is a Muslim problem.

Agree in part, me thinking Jesus is the messiah (is disagreeing with Jewish theology) it doesn’t make me anti semitic.

but with the clothing issue, it is deeply problematic when Muslim women are insisting that they are choosing to do so and explaining it is not a feminist issue in its essence and the person in question refuses to believe the Muslim and persists with their own agenda or conflates war torn impoverished countries with theocratic dictatorship with more pluralistic societies

It’s not islamaphobia. It’s astonishment that a woman would choose to subscribe to such a sexist way of living where men control everything. Why should any woman be forced to dress modestly just so the men around her don’t get distracted or aroused. It’s absurd.

I am not religious. If pressed, I would probably say I think that most if not all religions have more negative than positive aspects to them.

However I dislike lack of freedom, othering of people and the imposition of one set of cultural norms on all (yes, I'm looking at you, France) much more than I dislike religions.

And Islamophobia (which is in fact not very latent at all) is an expression of all of the above. As was antisemitism in the early 20th century, and as has been the experience of just about any minority religion in pretty much every country throughout history.

We need to learn to embrace that freedom means accepting that others will make choices we don't like. And that's fine.

I think one issue is that in some Islamic countries e.g. Afghansiatan, Iran, Saudi Arabia there is a suppression on women's rights and some rightly or wrongly associate head dresses and face coverings with this suppression in that partly removed women's identities in a very much patriarchal society.

I think given the misogyny in Islamic regimes that some caution/discussions about Islamic women's clothing may be expected in the UK so people can be convinced that removal of women's rights in some communities is not brought in through the back door.

Sorry of

As an atheist woman, I dislike the hijab as a symbol of female repression. That is completely different from discriminating against those who wear the hijab.

As a mother I have pretty strong views on the repeated cases of the organised abuse of white teenagers by men of south Asian descent.

Again that is completely different from discriminating against women who wear the veil, through choice, conditioning or otherwise.

Great post, I completely agree.

OP, I have a dear friend who is Muslim who started to cover up after getting married. Yes it was a choice made by her, but pressure from her in laws and wider family was an important factor. I’m not sure I would consider this a completely free choice, as our choices are not made in a vacuum.

there are aspects of Islam I disagree with (and other religions too, for that matter). There is nothing “phobic” about this.

People are free to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect my life. Purely theologically I think Islam is discriminative towards women the same as other abrahamic religions but because of the belief that the Quran is the literal word of God reformation is harder to do. Many believe in the Hadiths as well. Some of the stuff written about Kuffars is very violent and oppressive. I wouldn't ever say this to a Muslim person it's my theological beliefs but I wouldn't appreciate someone trying to convert me.

You said in your previous post the purpose of the veil was to distinguish Muslim women from non believers. Who gets to benefit from this distinction other than men? It serves their interest to categorise women as modest and immodest, the latter which they can harm/abuse without consequences. You are turning a blind eye to blatant misogyny in the Quran to defend your religion.

Probably a bit controversial but I find the Muslim obsession with sex/attraction/modesty absolutely baffling. Men's traditional clothing was designed so that the focus is not on their crotch. In some instances men can't touch other women's hands - no shaking hands etc , showing hair might atttract male attention, women in some cultures Need to be escorted by men just in case. It's all about sex. I don't get it. I have Muslim friends and they are all fab and I respect them but as a whole the cultural element of the religion baffles me.

But that is prejudice.

even if we agree on the veil having roots in misogyny (which I don’t actually believe), ever heard of foucauldian resistance? Turning a subjugation into an affirmation and thus thwarting the power the initial tool of oppression once’s yielded. Another example would be the LGBTQ community adopting the word queer which was once an insult (tool of oppression).

Many Muslim women adopt the hijab for the same reasons and actually for feminist counter culture reasons

I agree with you op but I also think Christianity and particularly Catholicism is hugely criticised and it seems completely acceptable to openly mock it . People literally have no issues mocking it whatsoever in the media and in public. I have no idea why this is deemed acceptable. I agree with you on the faux concern re Muslim women also . But in real life I find catholics are the most openly ridiculed and criticised of religions. When I read about people’s reactions to the Dali lamas absolutely bizarre act with a little boy a poster actually said nobody would say anything if it was the Pope, Wtaf there would be churches burning and they’d still rightly be talking about it but it all seems fine now re. that incident 🤷🏻‍♀️ probably cause budism seems “cool” to westerners or something .. I mean where is the public enquiry into that awful incident ?

*Budism

identity politics happen for many reasons. Nowhere does it say non Muslim women can be abused without consequences that’s not a thing