To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

So how would you explain it that isn’t rooted in patriarchal oppression? I’ve spoken to many Muslim women about this and the explanations are always tie in to controlling female sexuality. Many women are happy/keen to conform to this because it is their belief system and culture, but it is still patriarchal. All Abrahamic religions - and most religions in general - are based in patriarchy, Islam is not any different.

I completely agree that Islamic culture was enormously significant and was crucial in not only preserving earlier science and culture such as Greek and Hindu but massively extending these and creating the foundations of the enlightenment period. It is rich and sophisticated. This doesn’t stop it being patriarchal.

Orthodox Jews practice exactly the same but I don’t see it often used against our Jewish brothers and sisters

We love in fundamentally secular society and so we need to ensure any religion is not curtailing the rights of people given in such a society. To aim toward continued integration of society there needs to be discussion about areas where all our communities need to compromise so that we have coherence in our individual rights (and possibly culture). Perhaps naively I believe that having communities with fundamental differences in approach to areas of life e.g. women 's rights is a challenge.

Sorry, this is in reply to @Lesschubtolove - I can never figure out how to do the reply thing on MN.

It is based in scripture, which as a non religious person I consider to be a record of the male rulers of the time, i can see that is more complicated if you do believe it is the literal word of a god. For me all of the three 'big' patriarchal faiths have completely indefensible views on women as being 'less than' no matter how those views are framed as being FOR women.
As with any matter of faith the emphasis is on a voluntary submission to a perceived higher power, these are all facets of that.

If a woman chooses to wear hijab it isn't oppression. Many Muslim women choose not to wear it and many choose to wear it. Many will defend a woman's right to show her body but will not defend her right to cover her body. Make it make sense. You can't call yourself a feminist or a defender of oppression against women if you oppose her right to wear what she wants.

Why are women in Iran literally putting their lives at risk by removing their head dresses but here in the UK this is just a matter of personal choice? How do you the the two together?

There's plenty of criticism about orthodox Jews have you seen or read unorthodox ? Where a woman discusses her experience of being a member of Hasidic judaism. She had to shave her hair , go for a ritual bath after period finished not allowed to hug her husband on her period, not allowed higher education. She escaped.

@Red2017

But is it really a choice? How many non-Mulsim women would naturally adopt similar styles. To what extent is community expectation and potnetial shaming influencing a Muslim woman's choice of dress. I don't think a hijab is necessarily a symbol of emancipation or empowerment. Incidentally diversification of women's clothing often accompanies an increase in rights and status generally in society.

Because in iran it’s not just about the headscarf, it’s the act of forcing and the other injustices women (and minorities) face and a generally oppressive regime. The headscarf is just a symbol of that, not the actual problem. Removing it is a symbol of resistance. There is a huge difference and it’s the act of choosing.

ive known a few Iranians and most have worn a light draping of a scarf as to satisfy the powers that be.

I wouldn't have a problem with covering the hair if it's for god, you are allowed to uncover in front of mahram related males. It's to prevent sexual thoughts in men is hair such an aphrodisiac what if you shaved off your hair would it be allowed?

Yes I do think it's prevalent.

Tommy Robinson is more than happy to mouth off about Islam and grooming gangs yet not so vocal about the white men who've been found to be predators within his old gaggle - EDL

I'm a white woman who feels that my mixed race child hasn't really experienced racism however my friend has to explain to her children that her kids will not only need to be worried about terrorism but called terrorists because of how they dress and look.

I frequently am asked idiotic questions about "all the Muslims" our government allows into the country by American friends of mine online - they are ignorant and fed stupid inaccurate scaremongering headlines by their media

@Lesschubtolove

You say the head scarves viewed as symbol of injustice so why should that be the case in one part of the world and not another? Aren't the fundamental reasons for the headscarf the same i.e. an imposition from a religious patriarchy? Iranian women must not see the headdress as simply a symbol of devotion to Allah but as something very much of earthly society; does the same not apply in the UK?

But that’s a nonsensical argument because why would non Muslim women in the west chose to cover their hair when it doesn’t form part of their wider belief system or cultural practice.

sikh and Hindu women often wear dupattas covering their hair. Many Christian and Jewish women do as well, especially Middle Eastern or African Christians.

Because some people think the hijab is a symbol of repression, the active choice to wear one when it isn’t part of your culture, is going to be noticeable. It is catch 22. You will judged by one lot of people if you wear one and you will be judged by another lot, if you don’t.

I am not completely neutral on the subject though. While I respect the right for any woman to wear a hijab, I’m not a fan of the religion. I have lived in several Muslim countries and none of them have been great on woman’s rights and it is hard to separate that from the religion.

What do you think is behind the expectation in the UK that women not bare their breasts in public? Men can go topless in many places; women can't. Why is that?

I'd be interested to know which countries allow women to go topless in public as a matter of daily routine.

Because it’s is a symbol of oppression in certain places as it is very visible, it doesn’t mean it’s the actual problem. Like for instance the burqa in Afghanistan is the least of women’s problems.

it’s the act of choosing. Many women adopt the headscarf in the west as identity politics, counter culture, or like I said upthread reclaiming the hijab from being weaponised against women into their form of power, or for feminist reasons. Choice is the empowerment here

Its rooted in the culture of 7th century Arabia which has not changed much. Women are merely sexual objects. The women men get in heaven are described as hairless, their breasts are round and will never sag, fair skin, their hymen will be repaired after sex so they remain virgins, big eyes, etc.

@Lesschubtolove

Is it a personal choice to wear a head scarf or one that is as you say governed by relig ous/cultural pracrice? If it is the latter I would say there is an argument there isn't truly a free choice as you are heavily influenced by your own culture and community (this goes for all human society). If a Muslim woman chooses not to wear a head scarf can you hand on heart say there will be no judgment or comment by peers in the same community? The same argument would go for any religion or culture by the way so this is not absolutely focused on one religion (e.g. Judaism)

Is it Islamophobic to dislike Islam? I love Muslim people, but I strongly dislike Islam as a religion.

Yes I’d say it is

@Lesschubtolove

I don't know if the argument of counter culture through wearing a hijab works entrirely. If counter culture is the aim what not ditch the headscarf entirely? Are hijabs being worn as an ironic statment? I agree women in some Islamic countries do have problems but they are obviously associating their mode of dress with these problems i.e. the two aren't entirely disconnected.

You are not wrong.

The number of people on here who claim they'll never eat halal meat because "it's cruel" (with blatant disregard for the fact that most halal meat is stunned AND that it being non-halal does not mean it definitely has been stunned) is testament to that.

I’m a convert so don’t have any cultural pressure on me to wear it, in fact the opposite. So for me, it’s being seen as a Muslim as I’m not marked as Muslim by name or cultural inheritance.

but like you said there is no such thing as a free choice, we are all influenced by our milieu.

there are judgemental people of course but then In the secular sense women are constantly judged for what they wear, not being flattering enough, too frumpy, too sexy, not on trend enough