To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

Mariah (the woman I was referring to) was just anecdotal supporting my is there regionality in this covering of the face in Pakistan, along similar lines as cited by that influencer for basically the men in her family. And no, I wouldn’t argue that is along the grounds of empowerment rather the status quo.

amina wudud is a prominent feminist and wears the scarf, she’s also a scholar, perhaps some of her writing would interest you … inside the gender jihad being one

But when you exclude them from being feminists, you're not defending them. If feminists fundamentally reject Muslim women from feminism then your platitudes like 'do what you like' are worthless. Muslims women's idea of feminism may be the freedom to wear the hijab and control who who sees their body. Who are you to decide that's not feminist?

@m4j4 Islam is misogynistic in many ways, this thread has shown that. Feminists stand for equality and women's rights. The two beliefs are at odds. How can someone subscribe to a misogynistic religion and then say they are feminists?

How is wearing the same item of clothing that our sisters are tortured and killed for not wearing,
defending them? How is a western Muslim choosing to veil not a massive fuck you to all the girls and women in places like Afghanistan, Iran and Saudi?

@8state feminism fights for women's rights and the equality of the sexes, but just being a woman doesn't make you a feminist it makes you a woman.

If you're a woman that accepts and goes along with a religion that doesn't hold men and women equally and as one poster pointed out says something about women even being intellectually inferior, if you believe that how can you believe the sees are equal?

How is a western woman wearing short shorts or a mini skirt not a massive f u to all the women that are forced into skimpy clothing for sex work?

Well, they're not your sisters, are they, because you refuse to see them as feminists.

The hijab connects Muslim women across countries and languages. Muslim women understand it's a woman's prerogative to wear it.

I don't see how we can even know what issues a group of women face if they are told they can't be one of us (metaphorically!) I don't think it does feminism any favours to exclude people of faith, or say they can never be feminists, and I think all the Abrahamic religions say similar things about women. In practice people don't accept all of them, that is why there are Muslim women who are academics, doctors, actresses, writers etc. I am sure those women do not believe themselves to be intellectually inferior. There was pushback against writers like Betty Friedan, who focused on feminism as a white, middle class cause. We would progress feminism better by listening to women from other backgrounds, not telling them what the aims of feminism 'should' be, or what they should want. Feminism can be more democratic and progressive than that.

Equality for every woman except hijab wearing women. Got it.

Exactly.

this thread has shown a drastic inability for white feminists to listen to Muslim women if anything.

there are some horribly misogynistic discourses, undercurrents, leaders and patterns of behaviour across the Muslim world, that’s true, no one is denying that. BUT there are also scholars, activists and thinkers who are pushing back against this and saying NO this is not part of our faith, do not use our faith to justify or solidify your misogyny. Muslims have to be feminists to fight for this change. we have to be the change we want to see. What you are doing is ostracising those who don’t fit into what you define as feminism. There are many feminists who are gender critical and then many who are trans inclusive, many who say sex work is unilaterally exploitative and many who say sex work is work. There are feminists of faith too, Catholic feminists, Muslim feminist, orthodox Jewish feminists as well as atheist feminist.

I do think all women should be included but the definition of feminism shouldn't have to change to do that.

I mean, I literally mentioned miniskirts in a previous post, but actually there is a difference. Nowhere in the world on a mass population level are women forced to wear miniskirts or short shorts. Nowhere in the world are women risking their lives by tearing off miniskirts.

Now if you’re talking about sex work, then a more apt comparison would be women choosing to be sex workers and the effect this has on reinforcing the toxic subjugation of women as mere sex objects. HTH

Which Muslims' women choices preclude them from being feminists?

Even the definition of feminism you yourself quoted says 'there are a million types of different women who consider themselves feminists but don't have the same agenda'.

So let's hear your agenda, what makes you a feminist? Maybe we won't find you a feminist at all, Cuckoo.

Spat on outside mosques, career ruined by Islamic terrorists, you live an adventurous life.

So women don’t risk their lives running away from sex trafficking circles? (funny because I’ve actually worked with in a volunteer capacity women who have). The mini skirt being a symbol of that.

You forgot ‘gate keeper of feminism’

I posted the definition of feminism earlier. There has been much talk on this thread about modesty and the serial nature of a woman's hair, Muhammad's wives, rewards in heaven of virgins for men and not women, men being allowed to have multiple wives, the splitting of finances and head of households, homophobia, one poster with greater knowledge of the religion posted the intellectual inferiority quote etc all religous based and I'm not the only one to conclude the religion is misogynistic. While there is change happening which is amazing the core of the religion seems to be based on men and women not being equal (mysogyny).

I have said multiple times all women should be included in discussion. What I have also said is that given the definition of feminism is equality of the sexes/ women's rights how can a woman who subscribes in a sexist religion be a feminist? In doing so the definition of feminism would need to change as it makes no sense.

Why should the definition change?

@Cuckoosheep most of the statistics are available through standard govt statistics like https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/individuals-referred-to-and-supported-through-the-prevent-programme-april-2021-to-march-2022/individuals-referred-to-and-supported-through-the-prevent-programme-april-2021-to-march-2022#:~:text=3.-,Demographics,the%20type%20of%20concern%20raised.

I'd be a bit hesitant to discuss the more detailed research, upcoming publications, work, etc around Prevent and extremism topics as it could be quite outing for me. I use Mumsnet for parenting chat and prefer to stay relatively anonymous on here.

Have a look at the swimwear threads, where women are told you're drawing attention to yourself wearing swim leggings, wear a bikini.

Read up on feminists who write about how in TV and film women are denied being realistic and are transformed into passive objects to be enjoyed by men. Look at Love Island which is watched by young girls and has been criticised for misogynistic behaviour.

You just need to read AIBU to see how many downtrodden women there are in the UK.

But that is not enforced by their religion.

But you have systemically ignored the responses to each and every one of those things

so can any woman of faith be a feminist? What about a Catholic woman? It’s pretty misogynistic that women can be priests isn’t it? Or is it just secular women? I for one am an ardent secularist or is it just atheists? What about the goddess movement ? That leans into religion are they feminists?

They is the example of its use in sentence.

You're quite good at reading into things what you want to avoid proper debate.

At no point have isaidmy career was ruined. It may be difficult for you to grasp but strongly enough after 9/11 alot of things changed I the aviation industry.

"Gatekeeper of feminism" 😂 by using a dictionary definition?

What is their religion? The Media?