To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

No not at all, which is why I posted saying its nothing to do with her sexuality after I'd read it and realised what it read like.

I meant it in terms of could she if she wanted to whether lesbian or not. I was rushing and it was incredibly badly written.

It was from an earlier post. Please don't make me out to be homophobic or stereotyping gay people. I'm not.

I was debating with an earlier poster who asked my thoughts on if a Muslim could be a feminist, I asked in response if a woman who goes against traditional muslim roles eg feminist putting womens rights first, lesbian, someone who had sex before marriage could be still considered Muslim. It wasn't even an aha got you kinda post, it was genuine interest as I can't imagine it from what I know or if she was icould imagine backlash as per earlier discussions.

The scarf is a representation of Islam (religiously based), whether some women wear it their own way to give a fu to misogyny or not it is still a sign of repression.

It's a symbol of repression on your eyes because you use it to repress Muslim women by denying they have an individual voice and agency. You are the repressor you claim to hate.

I'm leaving the thread as it's just getting so predictable.
You either see the hijab as a symbol of oppression or you don't. My take on it is, if it's so great, why don't I see men wearing them. Instead, Muslim men wear ordinary clothes. Funny how one-way it is.
And it's not just the hajib, it's a whole range of oppressive attitudes.
Yes, feminists are fighting oppression, but the problem here is that certain posters will not at least acknowledge the obvious misogyny inherent in Islam.
But there you go. Enjoy yourselves.

You don’t need to announce you’re leaving, you just stop commenting like everyone else does 🥴

Do you cover your hair in front of your male relatives? I dress covered up most of the time to avoid being burnt or at work its a choice there's no pressure from religion or society. I don't cover my hair because it's hair and I don't think it's a sexual thing. I find it a weird thought that men could get horny and uncontrollable over seeing my hair. It's abnormal to feel so turned on by seeing someone's hair. Men should lower their gaze and get threapy if they lust over hair. Hijab is to stop men lusting over hair there's no requirement to wear in front of mahram it's not for god.

I don't care what Muslims do as long as they don't insist I change my life. Although I will always see it as a symbol of female oppression as there is no requirement to cover in front of mahram (Related males).

I'm not denying anyone anything.

I'm pointing out conflicting View points and mis alignment. I think another poster has written my point much more coherently above.

I'll repost.

This is incredibly well put.

The hadith says your testimony is worth half of a man's as you are deficient in intelligence. Another hadith also says women are the main occupants of hell, your husband will get at least 2 virgin big breasted houris (their breasts don't sag , their hymens grown backnand they don't have periods) in heaven for him to have sex with. While martyrs will get even more. Martyrs who die in war get the most. It doesn't mention what women get, or if they get male companions , the scholar said women don't have needs like that and they will feel no jealousy haha! Who are they to say what women will feel like? Maybe they would like multiple male companions. Why would a woman choose to convert to something that views her as lesser? I get people born into it or perhaps marriage but not women choosing this.

The more I think about it, it sounds like a 7th century warlord trying to convert men to their cause and army. Promise them lots of sex slaves if they win and sex angels in heaven if they die. It's a win win

All religions are essentially misogynistic and it's blatantly ridiculous whataboutery to try to claim otherwise. Religions are written by men the purposes of men. Full stop.

If religions are supposed to be about tolerance - well, that never worked did it.

I know from my own upbringing the damage that religion causes. My husband is Iranian and his family had to flee because of the religious regime. It's no good saying "well that's not true Islam / Catholicism / Christianity / Judaism." Sorry no. If it's happening in the name of religion - admit it, own it and challenge it. This is real life people live in, we can pontificate about 'interpretations' all we like. Especially when we have choices and freedoms that billions don't have. People need to stop being defensive and fussing about whether their version of god wants them to go around with a piece of cloth over their heads or not. As if this matters - it's a human construct, no more. Where is the common sense?

@Achwheesht , no, it's not your choice. There are different perspectives. You don't actually know why someone might be choosing to wear something or do something unless you listen to them, and underneath that needs to be an understanding that other views can and do exist and are valid.

Also, whether or not something someone does meets another person's definition of feminism wouldn't, in my opinion at least, be justification for discrimination or abuse against them. If someone is wearing a short skirt, that doesn't mean they should be a target for verbal or physical aggression. Yet part of the daily experience of women from lots of demographics is of abuse, sometimes due to what they wear. If it's not ok for someone to experience that because they wore a short skirt, does that not mean it should also not be ok for someone to experience it because they wore a scarf on their head?

If it isn't ok, shouldn't we talk about it not being ok and how to a) support people experiencing it and b) stop the people doing it?

When I saw a woman getting hassled and upset by men the other day, I went and backed her up and checked she was ok. At no point did it occur to me to tell her that her clothing wasn't feminist enough for my personal definition of feminism.

I think one of the many challenges faced by groups when they want to highlight prejudice against them is that, as groups with different perspectives on things, the responses elicited often include an expectation on that group to defend or justify their own actions, many of which aren't the actions of the people actually trying to highlight the prejudice, which is in itself quite victim-blaming.

As a side note, another unhelpful response to someone highlighting that they've experienced prejudice is "well, I don't think it's that bad or that common".

I'm a Muslim woman who wears a scarf mostly covering my hair, when I'm able to. Before telling me that I'm wrong to do so, please can posters read back over some of the things I have experienced as a result of other people having concluded that I'm Muslim. Then, consider if my wearing a scarf means those things should be considered acceptable or tolerated by a society which claims to be free and tolerant.

If we want to live in a free and tolerant society, should we not look to challenge things like homophobia, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, etc when we find them in the society in which we live, rather than tolerating discrimination and prejudice? Should we not look to make changes to barriers preventing people from feeling safe and welcome to participate in society, preventing people from fulfilling their academic or professional potential, etc?

I think you’re misrepresenting what’s been said by others and myself.

we’re saying, that those misogynistic parts are not the true essence of Islam and we are owning that this shit does happen and in some communities that thinking is prevalent and we are challenging it all whilst stating that this isn’t the true essence of Islam

Surely Mohammed didn’t dream this whole arch angel in a cave thing to win wars it’s not like anyone (Constantine) had been successful with similar ploys previously - although he hadn’t had to resort to such misogyny as sex slaves😂

To some extent though it doesn’t matter what it means to Muslims, in the West many of these practices represent oppression and regression. They’re the sorts of things western women have been fighting against for the last few centuries, seeing other women doing these things looks like it’s going backwards to many westerners, it’s not surprising that most see it as something undesirable

If the true essence of religion is tolerance and kindness etc etc - this is just common sense in a human level. Treat others as you would like to be treated. Do not kill. Do not steal.

I'm not saying there isn't some 'good' in religion, but it's 'essence' is that it was written by men for the purposes of men. All religions were. They are human (make) constructs - attempts at making sense if the human condition which may make sense and bring comfort in part, but also cause great oppression, suffering and death.

Religion, at its core, is a manifestation of the sexual insecurity of men and their need to control women / their offspring through fear. Religion is a way of sublimating misogyny. So a woman was the 'original sin' in Christianity. That's just for starters. Why on earth would any god speak to only one half of the population - men? Why would his word need ti take the form of a section about 'the Women.' Why are women othered in the very structure of the Quran, let alone the content of it?

@OMG12

To some extent though it doesn’t matter what it means to Muslims, in the West many of these practices represent oppression and regression. They’re the sorts of things western women have been fighting against for the last few centuries, seeing other women doing these things looks like it’s going backwards to many westerners, it’s not surprising that most see it as something undesirable

Aka: 'there are more of us than you, we have the power to exclude you from jobs and opportunities if you do not do as we say'.

With rape convictions falling, gender pay gap widening, threat to women only spaces, we are going backwards but it's not the fault of Muslim women.

I don’t understand your point. I am not defending any of these things. I think Love Island is toxic bullshit. See also most of social media and the tabloids. Did you know the Daily Hiel won’t photograph women in trousers? If they send a photographer, they make you change into a skirt or dress.

Are you trying to say that because western / Christian / atheist women are also affected by patriarchy, it’s ok to knowingly choose a symbol of oppression? Weird take.

It’s not the fault of Muslim women no. But to many in the west (and yes non Muslims are the majority - if I went to an historically Muslim country I would suffer (potentially much much more for not abiding by these rules) it looks regressive and oppressive, many of these rules or similar used to occur in the west but for most it was hundreds of years ago). This is the perspective of many westerners, we’ve been there, got the modest clothing and moved on a long time ago,

Are you saying the UK needs to make life hard for Muslim women because of what happens in other countries?

No, I'm saying for a Muslim woman all those things look oppressive by indoctrination, not the hijab.

How do you know what the “true essence” of Islam is?

Do you believe Islam exists outside of a specific cultural context?

Upthread you mentioned Foucault. He would suggest all religion is linked to power and culturally contingent. I agree.

I married a (very loosely practicing) Muslim man and I’m a (non practicing) christian and it was never an issue for us or our wider families.
That is - until my children started school (we live in a predominantly Muslim area).
They now socialise with Muslim children and their families who have had such a negative influence on my children and the harmony in our family.
My children now ask me why I don’t wear a hijab, why I don’t convert, why their dad doesn’t fast or lead prayers at home, whether they can wear swimming trunks in the bath, why I don’t go to the mosque with them (I have been but don’t like it because I can’t sit with my family). Everything is haram according to them and their class mates. Whistling, singing, playing chess.
I try to respond in a measured way because I don’t want to be islamophobic or criticise other families way of life infront of my kids but I will confess I have increasingly less time and patience for this nonsense.
It upsets me that the more exposed I am to practising Muslims way of life the less tolerant I feel. Maybe because I feel that the respect only goes one way.

A lot of female Western fashion is about oppression. It always has been - corsets, stiletto heels, even mini skirts. It's just the other side of the coin really - women being brainwashed. Whether we believe we are 'power dressing,' 'looking sexy' or 'dressing modesty' it's all defined in relation to men. Sure, I could wear stilettos or a hijab as a choice and that's valid. But I can't fool myself my 'free choice' happened in a vacuum.

And I’d agree with him

i believe it can, but it’s all a matter of interpretation. So we believe the Quran is for all of mankind regardless of culture, it’s also commonly understood that there are parts of the Quran that are universal and lessons for throughout the ages and there are parts that are culturally and temporarily bound. The issue is when scholars (who often have an agenda) have decided what is what and often it does like you scratching your head, so for instance the testimony of women in business negotiations (which is what that ayah is actually about) has been applied to any and all testimony for women and divorced from its cultural context whereas the ayat that talking about Christian and Jewish people going to heaven has been bracketed as for a specific people and not a lesson for all ages. Almost as if they have an agenda.

so I think if you view there revelations in the context of the points of revelation, we can see that the Quran was revolutionary at giving women rights at the time and nowhere is it stated that this progress shouldn’t continue. Context is key but often that’s not communicated or knowledge made available to your average Mo. Contemporarily there is a big trend of repeating, accepting and memorising without questions and understanding. I believe this is the problem or at least a huge part of it, people just know what they are told and the trouble with translations again, there can be agendas at play. A person upthread mentioned her children interact with a lot of Muslims on a daily basis and they are clealry passing on things their parents have told them, their parents also likely have 0 understanding of what they’re on about, or else they wouldn’t ask why a Christian woman hasn’t converted.

And that’s because some Muslims (like any groups) are backward, gossipy and thick and it boils down to education.

ive has my husbands relatives young children harangue me about changing my name post conversion (keeping in mind I converted long before I met my husband) and when I told the kids I wasn’t they recoiled in horror with but you have to you have a gori name, gori names are bad.. so that’s not the religion as you don’t have to change your name islamically, especially your last name, what it is, is ignorance and the attitude of the parents.

Agreed tbh. It’s like saying a woman who wears revealing clothing can’t be a feminist. A feminist can dress how she wants for her reasons.