To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

That's why the quote I chose was from the government's response to the report rather than the report itself. The quote used was:-
"The threat from terrorism is becoming more diverse, but Islamist terrorism remains our primary and deadliest threat. The Islamist attacks in recent years – including at Fishmongers’ Hall, Streatham, Forbury Gardens in Reading, and the horrific murder of Sir David Amess in 2021 – provide stark reminders of the enduring threat posed by those inspired to violence by Islamist ideologies. Yet Islamist terrorism is severely under- represented in Prevent. The Review finds that there has been an institutional hesitancy to deal with Islamist extremism and a reticence in challenging those who claim that our efforts to tackle it are Islamophobic."

This goes further with:-
"
This has also contributed to Prevent applying different thresholds for different ideologies. It has defined the extreme right-wing too broadly, so that it sometimes draws in right-wing and centre-right politicians and commentators. Meanwhile it has given too narrow a scope to Islamist extremism, which has enabled some extremist groups to operate unchecked. I will rid Prevent of any cultural timidity so that it meets every threat head on and does more to identify and challenge non-violent extremism. It is also clear from the review that Prevent needs to better understand the prevalence of antisemitism across ideologies and do more to combat it."

While I acknowledge that there is a threat from right wing extremists the response does indicate that Islamic extremism hasn't been addressed as thoroughly or as included as it should have been.

For the Government to say outright that "Islamist terrorism remains our primary and deadliest threat" only a few months ago shouldn't be dismissed especially in a discussion around Islamophobia where there was question over a link with violence and the original post was querying why there was reactions to the religion.

Could you post a link to what you've quoted please as I didn't come across it and my interest has been peaked by this discussion?

I guess then your jibe about playground name calling was projection, as I haven't called you any names.

@Cuckoosheep I really wouldn't put too much stock in government opinions. They were led by a man who openly mocked Muslim women, gay people and African children! If you went to a feminist meeting and some women in hijabs or headscarves wanted to attend, would you refuse them entry? Would you say they can't come in until they give up their religion? My guess is that you wouldn't, because once we meet and interact with people we mostly recognise they are very much like us. I really think it's a mistake to dislike swathes of people based on a shared characteristic, and something we should all get over if we are ever to have peace in the world.

@8state, no I wouldn't deny them entry at all, I'd welcome them and hope they'd teach their children or go further and make more change.

I don't hate swathes of people, I dislike Islam for it's misogyny and for the impact its had on my life. I don't hate Muslims at all, I dislike the religion. Just for clarity I don't like any religion and I'm agnostic. I have been massively supported by a group of religouspeople and ill be forever grateful to them but their religion has issues too. I do have Muslim friends but this isn't a subject I would risk those relationships over in real life.

@m4j4 give it up now.

Just to reply to the comment on the government concerns, some of the people in government are there for the right reasons. Ultimately on things like this we do have to take head, they're the ones who are stopping attacks (I hope in whatever form by whoever) and have the responsibility of protecting us. No government wants to be seen to allow their population to be at risk or worse for not stopping or doing everything they can to stop something bad. Look at the reporting on the AO arena, huge failings.

@Cuckoosheep I am glad you'd welcome them, although I expected that is what you would do in reality. I also think you would probably not raise all the issues you have done here to them, or tell them you dislike their religion. I understand you had bad experiences. I was surrounded and assaulted in Wales and subsequently physically assaulted again, twice. It was terrifying, but I don't dislike Welsh culture because of it. I have also been harrassed in London and Lisbon, by white people. I guess they were Catholics in Lisbon, where a group of men followed me, grabbed and hissed at me. Weirdly, I have travelled to a number of other countries and neither been harrassed or assaulted. I suppose my point is that assault can happen anywhere. It's more likely in poor or vice ridden neighbourhoods, I suppose, but even there you can meet many decent people.

Just to clarify further, I'd also defend her right to wear it even if I don't agree with it and defend the right of her to say any view contrary to mine.

OK, that's good to hear. I asked because some of your posts seemed to suggest you don't think religiously observant Muslim women can be included in feminism. You stated it was like the debate about whether to include men/trans women in feminism, that they somehow don't belong. Either I misunderstood, or you have moved on from that position. Good to know.

@8state I've said earlier one of my best friends is Muslim, she is the kindest person I know. I have raised some of these points in the past and mouthed off I'm sure but we are able to do that with each other. It does work both ways. She knows how I felt about her marriage.

My dislike of Islam isn't based on one experience, its based on multiple experiences over my lifetime, conversations and things I can't reconcile. I hope for those that follow it does evolve to be more inclusive and modern (i hope you get what i mean)and not used the way it is now here and all around the world but that's my hope to meet my views. I Hope this for other religions too.

This all sidetracks from the op though? Is it still somes views that anything that goes against something linked to Islam is Islamophobic even if it goes against another belief and its that the person has issues with?

I think Islam is a huge part of Muslims identity other mainstream religions aren't quite like this except small sects like Hasidic Jews, jevovahs witnesses , and Mormons. I'm in a mixed race family I am non Muslim as is the rest of my family. Our area isn't very diverse, my daughters Muslim friend talks about Islam all the time. dressing modestly my daughter started wearing baggy clothes in the boiling sun.

They are 9/10 years old so shouldn't be worrying about that. I got annoyed with the girl trying to impose her beliefs. DD thought about becoming Muslim to join her friend then decided there were too many restrictions. I don't understand why kids would be trying to convert their friends to a religion. That friendship will probably end as they reach teenagers as the girl isn't allowed to do anything even meeting female friends outside there's no freedom. I wonder why parents move here if they won't integrate their dc at all. It's incredibly isolating for them.

I think they should be included but I don't think they can be classed as feminists if enforcing misogyny and the repression of women. You can't defend a system that represses but say its OK because even though I'm part of the system and go along with it, I disagree.

I can see how for some women taking that step would be huge and change can be slow but it shouldn't be something that has to be considered.

Throwing it back can a woman who wouldn't follow traditional Muslim views or traditions etc in favor of women's rights be a Muslim? So refusing to go upstairs at yhe mosque and wanting to he downstairs, not agreeing to stay a virgin until marriage, marrying a non Muslim or be a lesbian etc I imagine in some countries definitely not but here?

Being black or brown isn’t an link to region though. That’s more about which country you culturally associate with.
Very few religions give women equal standing to men.
No religion should think it’s doctrines over rule anyone else’s beliefs including the right to be an atheist.
Islam ( or any others) shouldn’t be allowed criticise others. People are allowed to point this out.

You literally don’t know what you’re talking about, a Muslim woman who does all of those things is still a Muslim woman, even by the most conservative standards, the only thing that takes you out of the fold is shirk which is putting another god or something else before Allah which is basically disbelief.

im reading the first part of this as women who wear the headscarf can’t be feminists? Surely you don’t mean that.

and fyi my OP wasn’t if you disagree with some parts of Islam you’re islamaphobic

Above is a reply to @8state,my stance hasn't changed I hope I've explained it better?

But you’re not defending her right to wear it.

You’re saying she can’t be a feminist, ergo excluding her.

It appears from your posts that you’re all over the place and not sure what you think.

And the hilarious thing is @Cuckoosheep , that you reported my post about random strangers on the internet.

I’m always bemused by people like you that relentlessly harangue an OP but are so sensitive yourself.

Please @Cuckoosheep , tell me you don't stand by comparing Muslim women to men/trans women and therefore not able to be feminists? They are women, for goodness sake!

I hate to say this but it wasn't me that reported you, I wanted your posts to stand as an example of what I was explaining.

I used it to compare beliefs and said the definition of feminist shouldn't be changed to include people who do subscribe to misogyny. It makes no sense in a similar way to the trans argument. How can a woman who upholds misogynistic beliefs be a feminist?

You didn't answer my question on if a woman who upheld and fought for her rights which goes against Islamic belief can truly be a Muslim?

Sure

A metropolitan area, not a tribal part.

See also the PP for examples of how unveiled women are subject to acid attacks.

And how is a woman who doesn’t choose to wear a veil in her life yet wears one on occasions for the benefit of the males in her family a good example of choice or empowerment? She doesn’t want to wear one, but when she’s around certain men she feels she has to.

I say it again - I do not understand how any woman chooses to wear a hijab whilst a single woman is forced to.

I would defend the right to free speech even if I didn't agree with it, like I'd defend the right to religion and belief. You can do and say what you like if it doesn't impact me or cause serious harm why should I care? Misogyny does impact me, Islamic terrorists changed my job etc

@m4j4 This is a discussion, most posters are being quite civil and reasoned, most.

Wearing a headscarf because you believe in a misogynist religion ( pick any) is fair game to be criticised. If your headscarf wearing region/ country / belief isn’t sexist then there’s no problem.
Wearing a West Ham shirt doesn’t make you a football hooligan. However it’s still up to you to admit that football aggression is a real problem. Saying you are a peaceful football fan still requires you to do something about the senseless violence in the name of the team. As a cricket fan it’s not my problem.

I thought some definitions may help.

@Cuckoosheep OK. I understand feminism to be a broad church, but what it mostly does is fight to represent the interests of all women. Can't do that if you exclude some of them. I'm not Muslim, but I think the OP responded to that as she would know? I expect there are many Muslims who observe the faith differently and they are still Muslims. The same as with other religions.