To think latent Islamaphobia is as prevalent as ever

[Lesschubtolove]

This is based from several posts I’ve now seen in MN, about burquinis, wearing the hijab, in fact anything vaguely Muslim related on MN and in print media as well as the real world.

Most comments from posters on MN are fairly neutral but there are a fair number that then state some pretty (pulls yikes face) comments, especially about women’s clothing or integration. There also seem to be a lot of misconceptions about what Muslims actually believe.

It seems to me as though yes most people won’t come out and say that they dislike Muslims or think they are stupid, backwards, oppressed (insert adjective here) but the disdain comes out in more subtle ways.

im genuinely quite surprised at the misconceptions I read on MN, but I guess they must apply to real life too, but just that people don’t wish to voice them.

ps I am a Muslim myself. I did an ama a while back

What is their religion? The Media?
I don't think you get the point.
We are not a religious society. Which is for the best IMO.
Yes, lots of women are conscious of how they look. But there is no imam telling them that God tells them to behave like that.

Just re read back what I posted and it doesn’t align to what I was trying to say…

i meant in response to are women dying or risking their lives removing their mini skirt… and I said yes actually, women do risk their lives leaving or fleeing sex trafficking rings and the mini skirt or hot pants or other scant clothing is a symbol of that

i remember talking to a woman, she’d be trafficked from the Czech Republic and she said she’d never wear a mini skirt or even a skirt again because to her it was a symbol of the sex work she’d been forced into as a teen

But there is a still a dominant social moors and norms informing those women how to behave. Both are ideologies

I don't think you get my point, the media is full of airbrushed pictures of how women must appear, hospital admissions for eating disorders has increased by 84%, women are killed by male partners at a rate of 2 per week. This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum, it happens because this is what society tells women what they are worth and how they should value themselves.

I think one of the points that people struggle with is that there are different perspectives on things like what constitutes a clothing choice based on misogyny.

Some people wear skimpy or revealing clothing, some people get permanent body modifications, some people wear corsets, some people wear headscarves, etc... all of these are things which from some perspectives are considered to be based on misogyny.

Does everyone who makes these choices in our society do so because they're basing their choice on misogyny? No. Should people who make these choices still be allowed to participate in discussions about feminism? Or do we need to save them all because their perspectives can't possibly be valid and contribute something to those debates?

Sophistry on this thread masquerading as the defence of Islam. No religion is above having its tenets interrogated. Stop trying to change the foundations of this country. I am sick of the special pleadings.

Hopefully @Cuckoosheep will come along to tell you are not a feminist.

@Achwheesht I know Greer winds people up, but I think I agree with her that equality is the wrong goal. So you finally get to be equal under patriarchy, but it turns out it isn't so great even for most men. We need a system that works for women, I think she is basically saying. In my feminism your decision to be with your children is a feminist one. It is your right as a woman to care for your children, as it would be your right to work if you preferred to do that.

The entire thread is people interrogating OP.

She has never said you can't interrogate the tenets of Islam, she is calling out those who make Islamophobic comments about choices Muslims about what they wear or what they do.

Regardless of your feelings about Islam, it does not give you the right to lecture or discriminate against Muslims, which is often the case on MN.

No one is trying to change the foundation of the UK… that some Sun and daily mail thinking.

criticise Islam sure, but for things it actually features… not the word gori for instance but then maybe also be open to hearing the context of certain things and the presence of voices who don’t believe those things are applicable or appropriate today. Or criticise it because you don’t think an understanding of God is compatible with physics. Or any other textual reasons. And criticise Muslims and Muslim nations for what they do, (obviously don’t fall into sweeping generalisations) we all must do that. But also be prepared to listen when people point out how they are going against the teaching of Islam.

but I’d say if you exclusively criticise Islam over every other world religion then that’s prejudice

That is excellently put!

I've only just seen this reply with the other posters response.

As I said earlier the scarf represents misogyny and Islam is a misogynistic religion. I honestly cannot see how you can believe in Islam and follow it but claim to be a feminist.

So a Muslim who is a lesbian and wants to sit with the men wouldn't be treated any differently than any other Muslim woman? That does surprise me if I'm being honest.

Why would a lesbian want to sit with the men?

I have no idea but if she wanted to, would she be able to? Would she have the option?

Just realised why that may sound bad... it was in reference to men and women being segregated with the men downstairs and the women upstairs. Not to do with her sexuality but with choice.

You don’t seem to listen, the scarf does not represent misogyny to all Muslim women, you cannot prescribe to them what means what.

there are many Muslim women far more qualified and academic than you or I that claim to be feminists (wudud and mattson and cerah and McDonald for instance) and you still won’t take their word for it, at this point you’re a bit ‘my way or the wrong way’

when you say sit with, what do you mean? At dinner? At a wedding? How do they know she’s a lesbian, is she wearing her im a lesbian Muslim t shirt? How is her sexual orientation relevant?

you asked, if a woman did, and you listed a series of actions, would she still be considered a Muslim and I have told you yes, even by the most conservative standards. The only thing that takes you out of the fold of Islam is shirk (putting others before god aka worshipping false idols or claiming Jesus is the son of god). None of the things you’ve listed constitute shirk

No one is trying to change the foundations of the country. Our values as a country include free speech, choice of faith, choice of beliefs etc.

This is a debate on points of islamophobia and I think you just pointed out what the OP was referring to in her first post.

Women don’t have to be upstairs but for prayer men and women are separated or the women pray behind. There are mixed congregation mosques though.

why would a lesbian wanted to sit with the men? Are you implying she’s feel more comfortable with the men?

Your high neckline and low hemline are about the male gaze though. You don't want to bend down and reveal cleavage or thigh. It is a feminist choice, you are controlling how much of your body to show.

I have listened, I haven't agreed.

The scarf is a representation of Islam (religiously based), whether some women wear it their own way to give a fu to misogyny or not it is still a sign of repression. Lots of women are forced to wear it. If I see a woman wearing one that is what I see as being represented (in answer to your original post) I may now wonder if the woman is rebelling but only because of this thread. I've been trying to look at and debate your original post, you'll see if you look back that I've said this numerous times.

I have no doubt there are many many women more qualified and intelligent than I am from all faiths and backgrounds. I wouldn't debate this. I've tried to engage with you on this thread but you've selected what points to answer and what points to throw back.

In terms of my way or no way, youre also not listening, ignoring or rebutting not only mine but other posters points where they've critised Islam. In the same way you're saying I'm not taking on board what you and some other posters are saying you are not taking on board opposite opinions.

I’ve always understood it as due to the close proximity of prayer esp in taraweeh, I mean you’re almost on top of each other, women may feel uncomfortable with their bum being in a man’s face when they bend over. Interestingly men and women are mixed on hajj.

i too am curious what the lesbian thing has to do with anything? I’m not sure If was asking would an out lesbian be shunned by Muslim males or would they view her as a man?