Or is Mansplaining getting worse?

[PaperwhiteTheGhost]

Filling up my car screen wash on my driveway. No hose or outside tap at the front so I'm using a big watering can.

Random man: you know that's a watering can right? It's for watering plants. You can put a nozzle on the end to make it sprinkle the water out.

Me: Umm. Yes. I do know.

RM: It's not actually for filling up the car.

Me: Yes. I know. I also use it in the garden.

RM: You can use a hose to fill up the car.

Me: I know, but I don't have an outside tap, so I used this to move water from inside my house to outside. Because its a water moving receptacle.

RM: It wasn't made for filling up the car though.

Me: ........

RM: Hurumpf.

And off he wanders.

I mean.... what!?

Well, actually, if you look at the paper's abstract, it says:
"Expected gender differences emerged among mansplaining perpetrators and targets"

Where I disagree with you is that I think it's all about power, not gender. If you put women in a position of power, they are just as likely to talk down at people in the same way. There are some classic environments that can be very patronising for men in this way, with primary schools being a prime example.

I'll report back if/when I see something different in a more diverse team.

I didn't explain anything to you, just pointed out the paragraph I presumed you missed. It's not my study, and I'm not going to seek out more studies for you as I'm pretty sure you're capable of seeking out information yourself.

@BetterFuture1985 I'm happy to leave the unedifying spectacle of two men trying to explain why men try to explain things. I observe frequent instances of same-level interactions at my workplace where men patronize women. I agree that once power is involved there are complications.

I have tried to "reverse mansplain" sometimes in meetings because I know that some bosses listen to men more than they do to female (same level) colleagues, by saying (when asked for my opinion), "I think that XYZ explained it perfectly." Now I'm a bit worried that this comes over as patronising.

Fair enough. As I've said, I think this behaviour has more to do with power structures than gender. This one study suggests in the abstract that it is a behaviour where men are not the only perpetrators and women are not the only targets (don't I know it!) but still conclude it is gendered mistreatment.

I would put forward the counter theory that studies of environments dominated by one sex or the other are likely to see the perpetrators mostly come from the dominant gender. I'm not going to look for studies on this now; I don't even know if they exist. Nevertheless, my lived experience is that I've been talked down to by both genders in fairly equal numbers and my experience - which could well be unique to me - makes me think it's a gender neutral character flaw.

Yeah, I wouldn't do that. But what we're doing here is perfectly reasonable; we're debating the academic literature and it's flaws. We have the right to do that and we also have our own lived experiences that we have the same right to draw from. We don't just have to accept these terms at face value or exclude ourselves from the debate.

For example, if I created a term called "Horror Mummies" based on the theory that women who are strangers to fathers give them unsolicited child rearing advice I wouldn't insist upon women being excluded from the debate because they couldn't have possibly lived this experience. I'd fully expect them to defend their gender against what amounted to slander of the majority of the female population.

As I've said, I think this behaviour has more to do with power structures than gender.
I'm only now reading a book that covers exactly the topic you are now describing (what came first, the power or "masculine" behaviour) and it will take a while for the information to sink in, but it is certainly an interesting subject. The book is only a brief introduction but I'll go back on my earlier comment and recommend that for further reading, even though I'm only halfway through.

Anecdotes are fun too, though, as this thread obviously shows.

Anecdotes are fun, people are endlessly weird. What book is it again, sounds interesting?

Oh, not sure the link worked.
It's "Men and Masculinity: The Basics" (part of a Routledge series). It's more academic than it sounds. (I'm presuming you're not a renowned academic in the field or you'd probably have mentioned it by now!)

No, definitely not my field although I would love to go back to university to study sociology one day! I studied History and regret it.

@80s Thanks for the book recommendation by the way, will add it to the growing reading list I never have time for! 😂

I would put forward the counter theory that studies of environments dominated by one sex or the other are likely to see the perpetrators mostly come from the dominant gender.
Just picking up on this point ... I'd say that we live in a global society that has historically been dominated by men far more than it is today, but where men do still dominate. Do you disagree with that? Logically, it would mean that most perpetrators would be men, in our society.
Your theory would mean to me that it's not inherently, biologically a male trait; just a social one - but still a real trait, and a phenomenon that should be noticed and addressed to make society equal - like all phenomena that place either sex at a disadvantage.

I don't know is the honest answer. I mean, I can look at parts of the world and it's obvious men are in charge but in the west I'm not sure. I think it's possible for example for society to be based on sexist ideas without it necessarily being perpetrated by one gender over the other, counterintuitive as that might sound. For example, I think there are plenty of women who happily support many of the sexist structures that remain in society and only worry about the ones that effect them personally, to the extent that they can even be the very worst offenders. For example, I've seen women in the office being snarky behind a woman's back because she has only recently joined the firm and is going on maternity leave, but I have never seen a man do that.

It's the same with the "patriarchy." I think it's misunderstood as a social structure where men subjugate women. To me it looks more like a throwback to the past where institutions and ideas have survived past generations that continue to disadvantage women but which modern men have no interest or benefit from perpetuating and whose staunchest defenders could be women.

Take spousal maintenance in divorce for example. Whilst in theory men can get it too, in reality they are unlikely to ask for it and and even less likely to get it. It's based on a sexist idea from the past that once women have children then they shouldn't go back to work. It harms both modern men and women and should be abolished or limited in the way it is elsewhere in the west. You can try and window dress it with feminism by saying it is compensation for a lost career but it still begs the question why the woman had to give up her career instead of the man in the first place, or why we're not moving a more equal child rearing model like in Denmark for example.

Another example is brutal hours in offices that are not family friendly. Equality seems to be achieved by making it hard for both parents to have a career and again perpetuated by senior men and women who don't give a damn about their employees' work life balance.

I guess another example could be how the design of streets, cars, medicine etc has used an average height man as the "standard person." Historically that's because it was mostly men in the workplace and a blindspot but now it's just as likely to be a female CFO who is prioritising their bonus over fixing a historical injustice!

Ad infinitum.

I can look at parts of the world and it's obvious men are in charge but in the west I'm not sure
:D This may be squashing a gnat with a steam roller, but just for laughs...

I used to live sea lions. But that was before the internet.

Ah but your picture actually tells another story. The international protocol with these pictures is that where you stand depends on how long you have been in post. The fact their is a more similar number of women on the back row and down the sides is actually a sign of progress to the trained eye!

Also, it's a bit like those maps that are really blue in the UK that Tories use to pretend they are popular but in reality they represent constituencies with more fields and less tower blocks in them 😂Some of those leaders represent a lot more people than others.

What in the actual fuck is ☝

Are two men mansplaining to each other.

Well I suppose it makes a change from mansplaing at women.

We're not mansplaining, we're having a chat and expressing thoughts and opinions. I know people like you don't like us having freedom of speech, especially when we have the nerve to think differently than you, but you're just going to have to suck it up I'm afraid.

They're killing the thread with boredom because it was making men look bad, is my guess.

Yeah?

Dadsnet is >>>>>>>thataway

Another example a while ago. I'm medically retired but was a pastry chef for many years. For my god-daughter's 21st I made a three tier Birthday cake as a gift.
A guy helpfully told me I could charge for such a cake, perhaps even £50, explaining the same thing several ways just incase I didn't understand him the first time.
If I'd charged it would have been £400+. There was more than £50 in raw ingredients...

you know that's a watering can right? It's for watering plants. You can put a nozzle on the end to make it sprinkle the water out.

am i the only one that sees that as a bit of silly banter, an (admittably poor) attempt at being funny?

Uh-huh, so you want an echo chamber where you can spew all your bogus thoughts and theories without challenge? Sorry, not playing that game.

By the way, there's a reason Women's Studies departments sit outside Sociology Departments. It's the same reason Theology sits outside the History Department 😂

In these situations I go for the full immersive experience and hand him the watering can “I’m so relieved a man has come to help me!”

Would you prefer me to go and speak only to other blokes in an echo chamber and then come and tell you why we decided you were wrong? That seems to be what you are advocating.