Page 8 | 'ADHD is the result of bad parenting?'

porridgeisbae · 2023-05-26T18:15:59+00:00

Does anyone here believe in that anymore? Admittedly I don't chat to many people outside of MN, but I hadn't even thought of that idea for a while- someone laid into me about it when I hadn't thought it was due to the parents for a moment in that discussion, I was just seeing it as a neurological difference. I have some non-NT traits myself.

Willyoujustbequiet · 27/05/2023 08:13

alabastercodefier · 26/05/2023 19:30

I think it is in part due to poor attachment. Burt then I share that view with notable child development experts and psychotherapists like Gabor Maté.

The poor attachment happens when parents don't connect sufficiently with their children at critical developmental stages - but this can be down to unavoidable factors such as illness, depression, wrap-around childcare.

Interestingly, there's no evidence of ADHD existing, except for a list of behaviours that have been clustered together under the label ADHD.

This is absolute nonsence and so outdated, bearing no relation to current scientific knowledge.

Askil · 27/05/2023 08:20

lemonchiffonpie · 27/05/2023 01:44

There is a vast swathe of land in between the idea of genetics vs "bad parenting" as the causation of ADHD and many other diagnosed conditions. I have no desire to argue this - merely thought some other angles worth looking at, and some alternative treatment options might be encouraging. God forbid anyone reads the chapters in the link provided.

You have blithely come on to tell all that ADHD is caused by poor attachment parenting as researched by your trauma expert, Gabor. A statement that is a poor reflection on the parenting of those us who have dc with this condition and can be quite damaging in terms of understanding it and accessing help.

My question to you was out of genuine curiosity (based on your research and readings) what then do you say about neurological conditions such as TS which are strongly linked to ADHD and where does the poor parenting philosophy or theory fall within that area? you've replied, paraphrasing that there's a huge swathe of land between 'genetics and bad parenting, etc' (i wasn't necessarily asking about genetics, TS is not always genetic)

Your very condescending and rude reply boils down to you having no answer at all or rather this trauma expert has not addressed this?. This is a forum where people discuss things and ask questions. I am not interested in reading 'chapters', from your expert before I can engage. Posting links to your expert is lazy on your part. Perhaps next time If you aren't ready to engage in robust discussion you should refrain from wading in like a self-proclaimed expert.

@porridgeisbae Unfortunately and as you probably know, it is only more recently that Autism is now understood for what it is as a neurodevelopmental disorder In times past, 'experts' claimed it was caused by Poor attachment parenting, always mothers of course! (cold mothers!)All those poor struggling women condemned.

Dooopylally · 27/05/2023 08:30

fUNNYfACE36 · 27/05/2023 00:12

The people who had been employed in such places said virtually everybody was diagnosed.

Show quote history

"Virtually everybody" of a sample of people who have felt they or their child showed enough symptoms of ADHD to pay £1000+ and book an appointment. Many if not all who will already have seen their GP and CAMHS and simply got fed up with the three year waiting list.

Willyoujustbequiet · 27/05/2023 08:31

lemonchiffonpie · 27/05/2023 00:47

The well-regarded trauma expert who gave his opinion when asked.

Show quote history

Reckless and discredited.

Babyhustwabtstodance · 27/05/2023 08:33

No it isn't. But parents of DC with ADHD can be bad parents.

TryingThisAgainAgain · 27/05/2023 08:37

I don't think ADHD is caused by bad parenting. However, before diagnosing someone with ADHD I imagine you probably have to consider whether certain behaviour is due to ADHD or (for example) anxiety/trauma as they also impact childrens' behaviour.

I also remember watching Louis Theroux's America's Medicated Kids - filmed in America but was quite shocked to hear the doctor say they were MORE likely to medicate kids when they thought there were dysfunctional family dynamics.

ScatsThat · 27/05/2023 08:44

@lemonchiffonpie writing books is not the same as publishing peer reviewed research in respected journals. Anyone can write a book on anything they like, but to publish research in a journal, it needs to meet rigorous standards and be reviewed by other experts in the field.

It seems he has a lot of opinions but a lot of what he says has been criticized by others in the field who appear to have a deeper understanding of the topic. As far as I can find, he has not conducted any research in the field of ADHD (or if he has, nothing that has been accepted for publication in reputed academic journals). I can only find one paper on PubMed by him and that is on addiction, not ADHD.

Thanks anyway for the Wikipedia link, it was an interesting read.

ScatsThat · 27/05/2023 08:48

Dooopylally · 27/05/2023 08:30

"Virtually everybody" of a sample of people who have felt they or their child showed enough symptoms of ADHD to pay £1000+ and book an appointment. Many if not all who will already have seen their GP and CAMHS and simply got fed up with the three year waiting list.

Show quote history

Exactly this! That's like saying oncologists are over diagnosing because virtually everyone they see ends up with a diagnosis of cancer.

Bovrilla · 27/05/2023 08:50

Well myself and my siblings have all had diagnoses in adulthood. Brother is ASD (& has other issues), sister ADD and my ADHD. All of us are high functioning, earning well and functional members of society!

Looking at my family, there's a lot of ADHD traits through previous generations on one parent's side. And dyslexia/ASD/other related Neurodiversity throughout the wider family branches on that one side.

My parents were and are fabulous loving, caring parents. It's too easy to blame nurture as a cause when this one is almost definitely nature, but possibly with worse outcomes with poor parenting.

Babyhustwabtstodance · 27/05/2023 09:04

ScatsThat · 27/05/2023 08:48

Exactly this! That's like saying oncologists are over diagnosing because virtually everyone they see ends up with a diagnosis of cancer.

Show quote history

But international ADHD experts have been raising concerns about inadequate assessments by private providers leading to incorrect diagnoses for a while now.

That's one of the reasons the programme was made. Whistle-blowers.

TryingThisAgainAgain · 27/05/2023 09:10

RoseRobot · 26/05/2023 20:02

No it isn't. I am an excellent parent. I know this because I dedicated my life to becoming one. Despite having ADHD myself I was a very organised mum and ensured my DC always had clean clothes, shoes that fitted, mufti on the right day, correct kits for school and scout trips etc. I always checked their school bags, helped with homework, changed their beds, cleaned and decorated their rooms. They had freshly cooked meals every day, got read stories and sung songs every night. I played with them, hugged them, played silly games with them, had a lot of giggles with them, listened to them and comforted them when they struggled, acceptesd them for who they were and never tried to mould them, but encouraged them to work hard at school and fitness, so they could make the most of who they were. I took them out to build dens and climb trees, to fairs and shows, museums and castles etc. They had regular playdates and sleepovers, and as they became teens we went to gigs and festivals, comedy shows, long haul holidays and had pizza film nights at home. I thought about how to be a good mum practically every minute of every day because I was so bloody scared my ADHD and depression would make me unintentionally neglectful. It took all my focus and I had little energy for anything else.

But DS2 has ADHD.

I'm sure it's hereditary. My mum had ADHD. She was chaotic and neglectful of us physically (never had clean clothes or shoes that fitted or gloves and coats in winter etc. We were always grubby, late for school, unaware of what we should bring to lessons and day trips and even crucial exams!) But she was also very loving, made loads of efforts to do things for us, like baking birthday cakes, making clothes and toys, helping with our revision, taking us out for the day, singing to us. I aimed to be more organised than her and to provide better than she did, but I also wanted to be like her in terms of her creativity and playfulness.

This is amazing. I have some learning difficulties and fully know how hard it is to be organised and live up to your own parenting standards when your brain is not naturally wired to be organised. Reading this gives me hope that with some more strategies in place, I can be the kind of parent I really want to be. I am an okay parent, in some ways very good, but I am always insecure about this.

Dooopylally · 27/05/2023 09:11

And the solution to that is an adequate NHS service. Which we do not currently have.
Five years to get medication for your child who is struggling with their symptoms at school? M what civilised world is that ok.

Sianthomasisnothererightnow · 27/05/2023 09:17

Babyhustwabtstodance · 27/05/2023 09:04

But international ADHD experts have been raising concerns about inadequate assessments by private providers leading to incorrect diagnoses for a while now.

That's one of the reasons the programme was made. Whistle-blowers.

Show quote history

Is it within the private sector that is the issue? As far as I was aware you don’t get a diagnosis on the NHS very easily.

Madeintowerhamlets · 27/05/2023 09:24

Dooopylally · 26/05/2023 19:50

If it's related to attachment disorder, why can it be seen through the generations so often?
I think whatever your intentions OP this thread will be very offensive to people with/parents of people with ADHD

Exactly!

lemonchiffonpie · 27/05/2023 09:25

Askil · 27/05/2023 08:20

You have blithely come on to tell all that ADHD is caused by poor attachment parenting as researched by your trauma expert, Gabor. A statement that is a poor reflection on the parenting of those us who have dc with this condition and can be quite damaging in terms of understanding it and accessing help.

My question to you was out of genuine curiosity (based on your research and readings) what then do you say about neurological conditions such as TS which are strongly linked to ADHD and where does the poor parenting philosophy or theory fall within that area? you've replied, paraphrasing that there's a huge swathe of land between 'genetics and bad parenting, etc' (i wasn't necessarily asking about genetics, TS is not always genetic)

Your very condescending and rude reply boils down to you having no answer at all or rather this trauma expert has not addressed this?. This is a forum where people discuss things and ask questions. I am not interested in reading 'chapters', from your expert before I can engage. Posting links to your expert is lazy on your part. Perhaps next time If you aren't ready to engage in robust discussion you should refrain from wading in like a self-proclaimed expert.

@porridgeisbae Unfortunately and as you probably know, it is only more recently that Autism is now understood for what it is as a neurodevelopmental disorder In times past, 'experts' claimed it was caused by Poor attachment parenting, always mothers of course! (cold mothers!)All those poor struggling women condemned.

Show quote history

What an insane response. I haven't blithely anything. I thought it was of interest that Gabor Mate who I find good on trauma has written a book on ADHD and some treatment methods.

I haven't done research, so why would I suddenly be interested or capable of arguing with you about research on links to whatever.

My exfriend's three severely traumatised children were ruined by prescription speed given in childhood. That is the limit of my knowledge of ADHD diagnosis. In their cases, it was misdiagnosis.

As I said, I thought it might have been of interest. By your intensely rude, aggressive, bizarrely accusatory post, I have to assume you are dealing with other issues and wish you well with your mental health.

Whiskyinajar · 27/05/2023 09:26

The Gabor Mate stuff is interesting and likely explains the issues I have had throughout life.

However, it doesn't explain my son who was held and nurtured from birth as he struggled (he turned out to be autistic). Definitely no attachment issues but autism ones. He loved being held, cuddled and snuggled. We spent lots of time together mainly because his difficulties meant he needed me.
At age 20 he is still very close to me and just beginning to look at his future life. ADHD is more ADD inattention with him and medication is helping with that.

So yes I totally believe in ADHD but I also know trauma exists and attachment disorders exist both of which can produce behaviours similar to ADHD.

Blort · 27/05/2023 09:30

For children it's now considered the standard to give a QB test as part of their ADHD assessment.

This is a computer set up that tests for hyperactivity, distractability and impulsivity.

This gives a measured assessment and can't be trained for.

https://www.nice.org.uk/advice/mib318/chapter/The-technology

For all those on this thread pretending parents are pushing their kids to a diagnosis when it's not true

The technology | QbTest for the assessment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) | Advice | NICE

https://www.nice.org.uk/advice/mib318/chapter/The-technology

Askil · 27/05/2023 09:31

The classic response! when you've lost the argument start name calling and accuse the other person of having mental health problems @lemonchiffonpie.

Babyhustwabtstodance · 27/05/2023 09:31

Sianthomasisnothererightnow · 27/05/2023 09:17

Is it within the private sector that is the issue? As far as I was aware you don’t get a diagnosis on the NHS very easily.

Show quote history

NHS waiting lists are long so private providers stepped in with some offering inadequate assessments and therefore potentially invalid diagnoses and prescriptions of controlled drugs for ££££.

notacooldad · 27/05/2023 09:38

This isnt going down well Ibut believe in adhd in children that have been diagnosed or showing traits of adhd and are getting a formal diagnosis.

However I work with young people that have been referred to our service for support and parents insist that their child has adhd. There has only been a handful of times in years that his has been true. The issue has been bad parenting through lack of consistency, lack of boundaries or neglect. We have spent weeks with children whose parents have said their child has adhd but when with us they have been completely NT, respectful, engaging, funny and follow our rules.
A parent was insisting their child had adhd at a CIN meeting at the beginning of May and all the professionals are saying, 'nope, we don't think so'

Knight900 · 27/05/2023 09:38

From my experience with my own children, ADHD is definitively a neuro diverse condition which it has been proven that the brain is literally wired differently. It is the most frustrating and sometimes heart breaking issue you have to face as a parent.

Anyone on here suggesting otherwise is just ill informed and frankly talking nonsense

Babyhustwabtstodance · 27/05/2023 09:40

It happens. But that's not bad parenting causing ADHD. That's bad parenting that the parents then claim is ADHD.

notacooldad · 27/05/2023 09:41

Just to add to my post, we do work with young people that do have adhd, I'm not saying every child that comes to us with a claim of the condition hasn't got it! Some have.

BlackeyedSusan · 27/05/2023 09:41

Starlightstarbright1 · 26/05/2023 19:22

Yes it exists . You basically have to prove it’s not bad parenting before diagnosis.

you read it on MN on a regular basis . I wouldn’t allow my child do that .

Yeah, you don't allow them to do that. They bloody do it anyway.

I imagine there are quite a few who still think that. There are about autism.

Madeintowerhamlets · 27/05/2023 09:42

aloris · 26/05/2023 20:12

That's a bit chicken-and-egg though. Define "good parenting." For most, that would include things like "being consistent," and "following through with consequences." However, if the average child requires 400 instances of consistency and follow through to regularize one good behavior, and a child with ADHD requires 800 instances of consistency/followthru to regularize that good behavior, then the parents of the child with ADHD will experience a higher level of challenge in maintaining consistency or effectuating the desired behavior. In addition, children with ADHD are known to begin with more challenging behaviors. So the parent of the child with ADHD may be not only needing to do twice as many events for each one behavior, but must also multiply those instances across a higher number of behaviors. So the total requirement for "good parenting" behaviors for the parent of an ADHD child to produce behavior that others consider "good parenting" might be several times higher than those of a typical child.

In addition, "good parenting" is not only about producing a compliant child. A psychologist once told me, in the context of managing ADHD, that "children are entitled to experience happiness." Consequences for unwanted behavior are necessary to manage such behavior but such consequences also reduce the child's experience of positive emotions. If a typical child experiences 20 parental consequences per day, and a child with ADHD experiences 80, then is the child with ADHD going to be as happy as the child who does not have ADHD? Probably not. So is it good parenting to make your kid unhappy? But you managed those behaviors and the child is compliant, so that's good right? Or is it?

If you think it through, you might realise that there are no perfect solutions for the family of a child with ADHD. Whichever way you slice it, there is going to be a negative effect. That's why it's considered a disability and not just a difference.

Show quote history

This is such an excellent post.